Communicating Your
Way to Better Sex

Ep. 572 with Lesley & Brad

“People don’t think that sex and gender are two different things. They are.”

Lesley Logan

Bio

Shownotes

Brad and Lesley break down the interview with Dr. Celeste Holbrook, a sex educator and author who helps people move beyond shame and create healthy intimacy. They explore how harmful cultural narratives impact women, why communication matters more than technique, and how to reclaim your sexual choices as your own.

If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co.

And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.

In this episode you will learn about:

• How to make your own Pilates sandbag and what size cord works best.
• The impact of purity culture on women’s sexual experiences.
• Why sex isn’t static and how it evolves as you mature.
• The people-pleasing responses that block real connection.
• Dr. Celeste’s four-part guide to heal any sexual challenges.
• The importance of prioritizing oneself and going at one’s own pace.

Episode References/Links:

• UK Mullet Tour – https://opc.me/uk
• P.O.T. Chicago 2025 – https://pilates.com/pilates-on-tour-chicagoland
• Cambodia October 2025 Waitlist – https://crowsnestretreats.com
• Winter Tour Waitlist – https://opc.me/events
• How to Make Your Own Pilates Sandbag – https://www.youtube.com/live/tn4yUcEQnnM
• Submit your wins or questions – https://beitpod.com/questions
• Missionary Position: A Slightly Irreverent Guide to Sex After Purity Culture by Dr. Celeste Holbrook – https://a.co/d/3UimUKx
• I Kissed Dating Goodbye by Joshua Harris – https://a.co/d/38uINCk
• I Survived I Kissed Dating Goodbye Documentary – https://streamable.com/1ldz9c
• Episode 202: Jake Kelfer – https://beitpod.com/jakekelfer

Transcript

Brad Crowell 0:00
People who came from the culture that she did, which was like raised in a super, super strict religious home in purity culture, and so when she got married, she, for, like, it wasn’t like, you can’t just flip a switch, right? So she was like sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad. And then she gets married, and all of a sudden, sex is good.

—-

Lesley Logan
Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I’m Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I’ve trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it’s the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It’s a practice, not a perfect. Let’s get started.

—-

Lesley Logan 1:02
Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co-host in life, Brad, and I are going to dig into the freeing convo I had with Dr. Celeste Holbrook in our last episode. If you haven’t yet listened to that interview, feel free to pause this now and then listen to it, and then come back and join us here. I’m gonna tell you right now. We talked about sex, baby. So you’re gonna wanna listen to it. I also have her book. I’m so excited about it. We talked about a lot of stuff it. We went all places. Yeah, we didn’t really talk about positions or things like that. We just, like talked about the things that people don’t talk about.

Brad Crowell 1:36
Actually, you know what you talked about more than anything else, was communication.

Lesley Logan 1:39
Yeah, oh, yeah, we did. Oh, and, you know, what’s really interesting, her book is so timely at the time we’re recording this in my fucking Instagram feed, some stupid man decided to talk about stinky coochies. Oh, yeah. And your coochie needs to be Christian if you don’t want your husband to cheat on you. The fucking bullshit that people lie to women about. Lie, just bold face fucking lie.

Brad Crowell 2:05
There’s no such thing as a Christian coochie Go fuck yourself. That is insane.

Lesley Logan 2:09
It also, also, also, I don’t care what you believe, it is never your fucking fault if someone cheats on you, it’s never your fault. It’s always about them. There’s something going on there. It’s not your fault. Period.

Brad Crowell 2:24
Yeah, I was incensed after watching that video. And there’s a special place in hell for that pastor.

Lesley Logan 2:30
Yeah, there really is. And then I just listened to an interview about some girls who were, like, raised in a purity culture, and I forgot, I had forgotten a lot of the shit that I was, like, told and now and then I read, I’ve been reading her book, and it’s like, holy fuck. It’s a wonder, it’s a wonder women anywhere are having actual sex that’s not painful. So anyways, go read her book. Go listen to that episode. We’re gonna talk about some good stuff in a second. I promise. I promise. I do think that the world does get better at some point. I do. I do. I have to believe in that.

Lesley Logan 3:00
Today is September 4th 2025 and it is National Wildlife Day. And on National Wildlife Day, hold on, I pulled up, oh.

Brad Crowell 3:11
America marks National Wildlife day every year.

Lesley Logan 3:14
No, no, no. Don’t take this away from me.

Brad Crowell 3:16
On September 4th.

Lesley Logan 3:17
It’s an opportunity for everyone to step back, take a deep breath and think about all that surrounds us. It is inspiring to consider preservation and conservation efforts that work to improve in the natural world, there remains so much to learn, as Henry David Thoreau once wrote, “In wildness is the preservation of the world.” Okay, but we couldn’t agree more, so let’s take a closer look at this day. Yeah, go spend some time out in a preserve near you. We have a preserve near us.

Brad Crowell 3:50
We do, it’s really close.

Lesley Logan 3:51
We actually have the wetlands. And then if we go up two hours, is a really cool preserve we can go camping at, people go fishing at, there’s a fucking lake.

Brad Crowell 3:58
There’s one lake right here, like, a couple blocks from us.

Lesley Logan 4:01
Oh, there is another preserve.

Brad Crowell 4:02
Yeah, like, literally in the city, this preserve. Yeah.

Lesley Logan 4:04
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So go find a preserve near you. You know, I know people like to get mad about the coyotes or the mountain lions that live there. They were there first, so take that in. And second, like it’s, there’s just something like, it’s kind of cool that the way this wildlife that we live and go to a zoo. I mean, make sure it’s a good one. But like, take it in, take in the wildlife. Because one, it’s going away and.

Brad Crowell 4:04
I think the zoo would be the opposite of wildlife.

Lesley Logan 4:30
Okay, maybe. But I bet you, I bet you, some of them donate to wildlife. Maybe.

Brad Crowell 4:35
I’m, you know.

Lesley Logan 4:36
Go camping.

Brad Crowell 4:36
They can be well intentioned.

Lesley Logan 4:38
So what do you want them to do? Go camping?

Brad Crowell 4:40
Yeah, go camping.

Lesley Logan 4:41
This wasn’t very clear. So I guess take a moment to consider how you’re going to preserve the wildlife near you and conserve efforts, like your conservation efforts. You know, can you stop putting plastic straws near you know, water, like the ocean and things like that. The turtles are choking, you guys, so.

Brad Crowell 5:02
Yeah, let’s not choke any turtles.

Lesley Logan 5:04
No, it’s so sad, it’ so sad. I can’t watch those things. So anyway.

Brad Crowell 5:07
Our neighbor has a tortoise.

Lesley Logan 5:08
Yeah, Tortimer.

Brad Crowell 5:09
Tortimer the tortoise, the tortoise, Tortimer the tortoise, and he’s like, 15 or something.

Lesley Logan 5:15
But he’s not even a desert tortoise. He’s an African, something tortoise but.

Brad Crowell 5:19
Yeah, I can remember the name.

Lesley Logan 5:20
Speaking of preservation out here in Vegas, So the desert tortoise is about to go extinct. There’s actually we’re having some huge problems with them, and have enough space for them, because they actually need flat desert land to crawl on. And then, of course, flat desert land is what everone wants to develop because.

Lesley Logan 5:42
Was it extinct, or we’re just destroying their habitat here?

Lesley Logan 5:42
We’re destroying their habitat here.

Brad Crowell 5:43
Yeah, I’m not sure if this is their only environment. But, but, yeah, like the the Las Vegas Valley, you know, is expanding. They’re expecting something like 400,000 people to move here in the next decade. And so they’re, they’re slapping together.

Lesley Logan 5:53
The lack of rain is not deterring anyone so.

Brad Crowell 5:55
Well, they’re slapping together all these expansions all around the city in, you know. And basically, they’re driving out the they’re changing the desert landscape, which is driving away the turtles.

Lesley Logan 6:03
And the desert tortoise can’t live near the mountains because they don’t climb rocks. They just walk on the flat desert. Also, also, I learned this fun fact, you like, they have, they have territories, right? Like, you can’t have two male tortoises near each other, and they need to have a burrow during the hot part of the day, and if they don’t know the area, you just can’t pick up a tortoise and, like, move it to another part of the desert. They got to know where to burrow. So anyways, these are important things to know, and so if you live in an area that’s got some wildlife, maybe take it upon yourself to find out what’s going on, and your local city council meetings, and who’s trying to develop those areas, and yell and scream because it’s really cathartic, and you can save a wildlife animal near you. We are we’ve been recently yelling and screaming to keep Las Vegas loud, so downtown loud. So, you know, it’s fun. It’s fun to be part of things in the community, to, like, take care of other people. Okay, enough about this day.

Lesley Logan 6:04
Coming up. Oh, like now we’re actually.

Brad Crowell 6:33
Yeah, we’re literally en route.

Lesley Logan 6:51
So we’re in the U.K., by the way.

Brad Crowell 6:57
We just we just landed.

Lesley Logan 7:03
No, we’ve been here a day. We’re in Scotland today. Yep, we are actually at the very top of Scotland. We’re as far up as we can go. And because, that’s because we’re gonna take a little vacation, we’re gonna see some interesting Scottish games, and then we’re gonna drive all the way down to Essex, where we’re teaching for two days The Movement Base. And there might be a couple spots left in the workshops, and then we’re going up to Leeds to teach there on the weekend in September. So this is all happening in September, September 8th, 9th and 10th, and then 13th and 14th. Anyways, it’s a Tuesday and Wednesday.

Brad Crowell 7:33
I don’t actually remember the specific dates, but a.

Lesley Logan 7:36
And a Saturday and a Sunday and.

Brad Crowell 7:38
Go to opc.me/uk for the specifics.

Lesley Logan 7:41
Yeah, and don’t miss out, because we’re not coming back. Okay.

Brad Crowell 7:46
Not anytime soon. Last time was two years ago, so yeah, you know, but yeah, we’re never gonna be back.

Lesley Logan 7:50
No, we’ll come back. Then we’re gonna go home for two days, and then we’re going to go to Pilates on Tour in Chicagoland.

Brad Crowell 7:56
Two days?

Lesley Logan 7:57
Two weeks.

Brad Crowell 7:58
Two weeks.

Lesley Logan 7:59
Two weeks.

Brad Crowell 7:59
Yeah, I was gonna say.

Lesley Logan 7:59
Two weeks.

Brad Crowell 7:59
Two weeks, we’re home for two weeks.

Lesley Logan 8:02
We’re home for two weeks, and then we go to Chicagoland, no, just three weeks. Chicagoland. And the time that we’re recording this, we heard it was 75% sold out. It’s probably changed, but I think there’s, I think the early bird ends next week, if there’s any room, and then we’ll be in Cambodia. And the time you’re hearing this, you’ve got a month, you can still sign up, you can still buy a plane ticket, like there’s still time,

Brad Crowell 8:24
There’s definitely still time. I’m still having conversations with people, and there’s there’s room, so.

Lesley Logan 8:28
crowsnestretreats.com

Brad Crowell 8:30
PS, if you have ever wanted to walk around with elephants, we go to an elephant sanctuary at the after the retreat is over, it’s an extra curricular activity after that we love to do, and so we always stay an extra day. And we also go to a waterfall, which is super magical. And maybe that’s the thing that you’re just like, really that excited, you know, that’s what you want to do. So I just want to throw those out there that you can join us for those, in addition to the retreat. Go to crowsnestretreats.com crowsnestretreats.com, and come join us.

Lesley Logan 9:05
Yeah, and we’re as we’re, by the time we’re recording this, we’re also trying to lock in a day of teaching in Singapore. So my Singaporeans, hello, we are coming your way. And then we’re gonna go see the botanical garden. So if you wanna walk around the gardens with us, you can. Then, December is our winter tour, and we’re getting a ton of people asking us if we’re going to Texas, and things like New York, and things like that. Yes, it’s in the winter tour. So go to opc.me/events to get on the waitlist for that because if you’re on the waitlist, you hear right away. And let me tell you, when we announce our tours, some cities literally sell out, especially on the winter tour. So because we’ve been doing the winter tour the longest, and people are really excited about it. So, opc.me/events. Okay.

Brad Crowell 9:43
You’re not wrong.

Lesley Logan 9:44
Before we get into. I know, I know. We went to bed after announcing it. Woke up, two cities were sold out.

Brad Crowell 9:50
Two cities were sold out in less than 24 hours last year, yeah.

Lesley Logan 9:53
Okay, all right, Brad, we have an audience question to answer.

Brad Crowell 9:56
Yes, we do.

Lesley Logan 9:57
And actually, this is really for you.

Brad Crowell 9:59
Oh would you like to read the question?

Lesley Logan 10:06
Yes.

Brad Crowell 10:06
Okay.

Lesley Logan 10:02
@gp_pilates_studio, that’s Greenpoint Pilate studio, hi, Allyn, on YouTube asks about How to Make Your Own Pilates Sandbag video. Hey, Brad, what is the diameter, the diameter of the rope and cord, the paracord that we use? What’s the diameter of it?

Brad Crowell 10:16
Okay. So this was on a video that we made, Lesley and I made called How to Make Your Own Pilates Sandbag, right? And if you’re familiar with the sandbag, it’s the bar, and then there’s the cord, and then there’s the weights, and you can twist it back and forth. And so we actually made one our own, and we showed you how to make your own. So if you’re interested in that, it’s on YouTube. Great question here, Allyn, gp_pilates_studio on YouTube. So, it doesn’t matter really what the diameter is. You don’t want, like, you know, an inch thick piece of rope that would be just annoying and bulky. But what I used was just like your typical, like, cheapo bought it at the hardware store, nylon cord, you know, I think it was like 10 bucks for 100 meters of it, or something like that, you know, and they wrap it around that little h looking thing, and you just spin it around it, and it’s like, you know, I don’t know, like, there was no real diameter. It’s just the smallest thing.

Lesley Logan 11:13
Okay, I found it. I found it. Three-eights of an inch.

Brad Crowell 11:16
Yeah, but, but honestly, if you get a quarter of an inch, it’s fine, you know, I wouldn’t. I probably, like, at a half an inch or an inch thick rope, it would just be annoying because you’re twisting it around this, you know, it would, it would become like a spool, and that’s just silly. So smaller is fine. The reality is, it just needs to support, you know, a pound or two pounds of weight, you know, so we’re not, we’re not trying to lift a house here. We’re just.

Lesley Logan 11:39
I’m pretty sure it’s a three-eights of an inch one that looks like what we got. And also it, because I remember, it fits like, right through, if you just drill a hole we didn’t get anything fancy.

Brad Crowell 11:40
Yeah and I just, yeah, I just took a, you know, a quarter inch drill bit right through the middle, and then I just threaded that through. So as long as you can get the rope through, it’s fine. That’s really, you know, that all that matters.

Lesley Logan 12:00
Yeah, I love it. So you can all make your own sandbag. We did it for the Accessories Deck, which is now shipping worldwide.

Brad Crowell 12:07
Yeah. We actually did. We showed you how to build three different pieces of equipment. One was the push up handles. One was the the two by four, and then finally, was this one, this Pilates sandbag. So, yeah, great question. Thanks for that. If you have a question, you can text us at 310-905-5534, or you can submit your question or your win to beitpod.com/questions beitpod.com/questions and we kind of need you to submit y’all so we have some wins to talk about on our Friday pod so let’s go. Let’s go right now. Pull out your phone, go to beitpod.com/questions beitpod.com/questions. All right, that’s enough of that.

Lesley Logan 12:50
You know how easy a win is. This is my new win. So, I have been trying to figure I love my I love my red light mask and neck. And when I got them, I was using them really regularly, and we got really busy and and I’ve everything else, all my other habits were really good, but that one is has just been hard to fit back in. And I saw the dermatologist, and he’s like, yeah, my wife uses hers every night. And I said, oh, when? He was like, before bed, and you know, so she washes her face and she use them. I’m like, oh, I can do that. And so I have done it four nights in a row, right before bed. I just put them on my face and I lay there. And you know, what’s crazy is, like, I actually am getting some really good, deep sleep, like I’m sleeping really well. And I think it’s that there’s a time before I fall asleep that I’m just laying there waiting to go to sleep. So that’s a win.

Brad Crowell 13:35
Like, it’s on for like, 10 minutes.

Lesley Logan 13:35
Yeah, it goes off on its own. So even if I fell asleep with them, like, I wouldn’t want to do that, but I could fall asleep with them laying on my face, and like, you know, yeah. See how easy that was. I just came up with a win on the spot.

Lesley Logan 13:41
That’s a win on the spot.

Lesley Logan 13:43
You can do it too.

Brad Crowell 13:46
Yeah, yeah, I love it. Well, stick around. We’ll be right back, because we’re going to dig into this juicy conversation that we have with Dr. Celeste Holbrook, and also celebratory. It was really awesome. So we’ll be right back.

Brad Crowell 14:01
Okay, now let’s talk about Dr. Celeste Holbrook. PhD, right? Yeah, she’s no joke. Dr. Celeste Holbrook is a sex educator with a PhD in health behaviors and a post grad emphasis in sexual behaviors. She helps women and couples overcome challenges, heal from shame, and create better, more fulfilling sex lives. Her new book, Missionary Position: A Slightly Orreverent Guide to Sex After Purity Culture, tackles the complex interaction of sex, religion and personal freedom. Celeste is known for her practical, down to earth approach that makes conversations about sex accessible and empowering and honestly, not awkward. But she’s just really good at making it just, it’s just a conversation. It doesn’t have to be the silly thing. Some, for some reason it’s like, it feels like we revert to sixth grade whenever this this conversation comes out, and it’s like everyone like, hee-hee-hees in the corner. It’s so weird, and it’s and you might not be doing it out loud, but you’re kind of cringing a little on the inside. She just takes that whole thing away and, like, you know, I mean, it was, it was, she’s very matter of fact, matter of factly talking about having dildos in her social media posts, you know, like, oh, okay, yeah, there’s that. But, but yeah. I mean, she’s, she’s not being like, risque or weird about her the conversation. She’s specifically serving people who came from the culture that she did, which was, like, raised in a super, super strict religious home in purity culture. And so when she, when she got married, she for, like, it wasn’t like, you can’t just flip a switch, right? So she was like, sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad. And then she gets married, and all of a sudden, sex is good. Like, that’s not how it works in the body. And she had to tackle that.

Lesley Logan 15:43
Yeah, definitely listen to her first interview on the show, because it actually goes into that if and, and I think it’s really interesting. I think, like, even if you weren’t raised in a super like, if you, if I, if I say purity culture, and you don’t think automatically.

Brad Crowell 15:55
That doesn’t mean anything to you, right.

Lesley Logan 15:55
And you never had a ring on your finger that was turned one different way, and you were, like, betrothed to your father until, until someone’s picked for you. Laugh. Had that ring, guys.

Brad Crowell 16:07
Not laugh. It’s like a, it’s like a sardonic shudder.

Lesley Logan 16:11
Oh, I know. Because, like, we thought that was normal.

Brad Crowell 16:13
Totally thought it was normal.

Lesley Logan 16:15
Did you read the book I Kissed Dating Goodbye?

Brad Crowell 16:16
Yeah. Oh yeah. Josh, Josh something, right?

Lesley Logan 16:17
Yeah. I think he’s come out and said everything I taught was wrong. I’m almost positive one of the guys.

Lesley Logan 16:19
He got a follow up book and then I think he got, like, ostracized from the churches.

Lesley Logan 16:26
Yeah, one, one of the, one of the purity culture dudes, and I think it’s kiss dating guy, goodbye guy has come out and said his book was extremely harmful, and he doesn’t believe that anymore.

Brad Crowell 16:36
Joshua Harris.

Lesley Logan 16:37
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so thank you, Josh for doing that. But like, for the women who are listening, if you have friends in your life, if you weren’t raised like this, who literally were told that like that is the worst thing they could do is to as to at all make a man lust. If you did anything that can make a man lust, you were causing him to go to hell. So you are, like, doing everything you can to, like, not be, not be attractive, and not be feminine, and then you get married, and you’re supposed to just be sexy and have sex and, like, make babies. And, you know, Dr. Celeste and many women, they actually go through this painful experience with sex. And maybe you don’t have that, but also you don’t actually know, and she talks a lot about communication. How do you want to feel like you were never taught that sex could be something that you could enjoy? A lot of women are taught, not taught that you can enjoy sex.

Brad Crowell 17:23
I just went down the rabbit hole. He, 20 years after writing the book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, Joshua Harris left the church he was pastoring, divorced his wife and made a document, a documentary about the repercussions of the book. Oh, I want to watch the documentary. It’s called, I Survived I Kissed Dating Goodbye.

Lesley Logan 17:47
Okay, well, we’re watching that. That’s tonight’s show. The it’s an eye and it’s really interesting, because, like, I had a very interesting childhood where I there was definitely purity culture at the church, at the church camps I went to. My parents tried to do these things, and then also my parents would kick us out of the house so they could have sex. So, like, sex was a conversation that they had. My grandparents would talk about how they had sex a lot. So, like, I It’s not like I I lived I knew that married couples had sex, right, so, but it’s just the reason that I bring this up is I actually think a lot of women, whoa, you good?

Brad Crowell 18:10
Sorry, I found it. Somebody pulled it off of YouTube. He doesn’t have the rights to it, and so it was on YouTube for years. I’m still down the rabbit hole, y’all. This is (inaudible) online. I went to his own website, and I found a post, a blog post, from May, so two months ago, saying, I don’t know why they pulled it off of YouTube. It used to be here. Here’s a link to it. That was on a pirated website. I don’t know how long it’s going to be available, but you can still watch it. So, very interesting.

Lesley Logan 18:54
Love him. Okay, we do need to get back to Dr. Celeste.

Brad Crowell 18:54
Sorry, I’m focused. I’m in. Okay.

Lesley Logan 18:57
So I, I just, I’m really obsessed with what Dr. Celeste is doing, because I just know too many women who, whether or not you had a ring and you’re were married to, like, dating your dad, until you were dating someone else, you were not offered the opportunity to understand that you could feel good during sex. Like, that’s just very few people. Some, some people had brilliant mothers who were like hippies and like, told about that that is not, that is not most of my friends’ experience. So, so one of the things, so, get her book, okay, you’ll get her book. So she said American society tends to view sex in binary extremes, but it’s rather a more nuanced middle ground. And we’ve seen this. You can see this in social media today. Like, people don’t think that sex and gender are two different things. They are. Like, so, like what you’re what you’re attracted to, and like the gender. All these there’s there’s differences, and it’s not so black and white, and everyone wants to make it like this is how it is, where sex is often placed on either end of the spectrum, either don’t think about it or don’t talk about it until a certain age or a marriage. And then that makes it really difficult. Because you know, most of the things, like, when you’re a little kid, everyone asks, like, what do you want to be when you grow up? So you have your whole life to change your mind. You’re like, I’m gonna be a judge. I’ll be this. And you get to, like, explore and take classes and to do that. And when you’re in this country, most people, like, don’t do sex, don’t have sex, don’t get pregnant. And girls are also taught it’s your fault if you get pregnant and there’s something wrong, like you did something wrong. Yeah, if you get pregnant.

Brad Crowell 20:22
Well, your shoulder straps were too skinny, that’s why you’re pregnant.

Lesley Logan 20:26
Yeah. And then all of a sudden, you’re married. So now you should know, you should know how to do sex. You should know what, what to do, but no one let you talk about it. No one like, it’s just a whole mess. It’s a mess. It’s a mess. So anyways, I really like, that’s why she wrote her book. But she also explained, we are not binary people, as far as what we want to do in our sex life. And she said, like, she advocates living in the glittery middle, like, just like, you know, like, it doesn’t have to, like, just because you liked it one way, at some point is like, another way.

Brad Crowell 20:54
So, just so that, like, we like, when we say binary, I think what she’s what she’s saying there is, it’s okay for sex to change over time. Because the conversation you were having is like, you know, sex is, is different at different stages of life, right? When you’re, you know, in your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 70s, like, it changes, right? And so that’s I, you know, I think that makes, that makes sense.

Lesley Logan 21:21
And she so, she advocates for that glittery middle and, like, also, you know, exploring and, and it’s, I think what’s interesting is, like, she is so open to, like, helping you figure out what you want. And I have some amazing, interesting friends in this world. I have one friend who, like, has a partner who’s a sexual, has a partner that she dates, but they date someone else, and then she prefers to have one other one. And I’m like, like, the 12 year old me is like, oh my god, what the fuck are you doing? Like, that’s so weird. And then, like, the person who’s like, gone through some work, done a lot of reading, I’m like, that is very fascinating. I don’t like looking at my calendar that much, and that sounds like way too many.

Brad Crowell 22:03
It’s a lot of scheduling.

Lesley Logan 22:04
A lot of scheduling. It’s also a lot of testing, it’s a lot of things. But she looked at me and she’s, like, 10 years? Like, are you bored? So like, you know, it’s really funny how we all have a different thing and she and Dr. Celeste is just like, advocating for, like, live in your glittery middle, understand that you’re what you’re gonna want out of your sex life is gonna change, and that’s okay, and that’s there’s nothing wrong with you as it changes. Like, just explore that. And so she basically said you could decide what is best for you, and that right there is like the opposite of what purity culture and dickhead people in this country want you to think. They don’t want you to think it’s what’s best for you. They want you to think it’s what’s best for the dick headed man they think you should be married to. Anyways.

Lesley Logan 22:05
Tell me more about how you feel.

Lesley Logan 22:12
Fucking Christian coochie. That’s never gonna leave my mind.

Lesley Logan 22:36
Yeah. Like, what a woman hater. Gross.

Lesley Logan 22:58
That’s the interesting thing. Like, I think a lot of, I think a lot of people in that world just don’t like women. But it’s, anyways.

Brad Crowell 23:05
Yeah. Well, I mean, I was gonna say as a comment to that, you know, how do you get to the point, like, the reason I made the comment at the beginning was that it was mostly about communication. Is because, if you have been with someone for a long time, what does it look like to have that conversation of, like, things are changing and shifting in your sex life, you know? How is that? What does that mean? And, like, you know, I’m not talking about like, like, promiscuity. It could be that, you know, but, but, but maybe it’s just simple things like, hey, you know what? Like, I want to make it I want to change it up, you know. Like, let’s change it up today, you know, whatever, and but the communication is where I think it gets awkward, and hopefully, you know, with your partner, you have the the type of relationship where you can just simply have a conversation about it.

Lesley Logan 23:55
Also, I really, am I gonna take away your takeaway talking points? I really loved how she talked about the funny, like the faking the orgasm, is that in your section?

Brad Crowell 24:05
My section, no, I was talking about how things changed over time. In fact, I even jumped ahead to it without realizing it myself. Fawning is really interesting, if you’re not familiar with the definition. What is fawning?

Lesley Logan 24:16
So essentially, like, there’s flight, fright, fight, right? And I used to, when I studied biology, it was like, and fuck, like, some people, well, that’s like, it’s all part of the same part of your brain system. So that’s kind of funny, but fawn is like, this, like, people-pleasing, or you’ve seen it in movies where the guy gets really mad and he hits her, and then she’s like, oh, it’s okay. Actually, that was my fault. I tripped into you. Like, they do this whole, you know, like, you’re okay, everything’s like, and acting like, really small and toss out like a little lamb, and then that makes a person, usually a man, like, calm down. Everything’s fine. She talked about faking orgasms as a fawning response, as a people-pleasing response, and we talked, oh my, you guys have to listen to this, because she talked about, like, she believes in being honest, but also being kind. And we taught and like.

Brad Crowell 25:03
She said there was a difference between honesty and full transparency. She said she doesn’t believe in full transparency, but she does believe in honesty, and she said people can use full transparency as honesty and be cutting and hurtful, right?

Lesley Logan 25:20
Because, like, because she also has, and this is an interesting thing. If you have been faking orgasms in your entire marriage, it’s you can’t always just blame your partner, because you never told them what it would take to please you, and so they’re just doing what you have responded to in the past, you know? So it’s a and I thought was really fascinating. So it’s like, yes, be honest, like, hey, I would like to try something different that’s no longer working for me. And so then it’s not something that you’re rejecting the other person or making them feel like shit, and you’re also able to then start articulating what you want. And it does take practice. You’re right. It’s all about communication. It’s such you guys have to go listen. If you have, you gotta listen, go, listen.

Brad Crowell 26:00
Yeah. And just to wrap that up there, you know, as things change over time, she said, hey, we mature as humans. Why wouldn’t our sex life mature too? And it’s important to allow our sex life to mature as we mature. It’s the most helpful thing that we can do for ourselves. So, you know, I just thought it was really a topic that nobody ever talks about that’s really helpful. So, yeah, there’s a lot of room to allow ourselves compassion to grow as we grow, right? And then, you know, and that’s like.

Lesley Logan 26:30
Oh, you guys, I mean, when you get older, when you get older, like, your bones get brittle. So, like, there’s going to be some positions that neither person, no matter what your gender is and who you want to have sex with, can do, like, you’re gonna have to start doing sideways sex, because, like, you could fucking break your pelvis or a hip. So, like, just start getting.

Brad Crowell 26:49
You could break it while fucking is what you meant to say.

Lesley Logan 26:52
Yeah, that too. But anyway, so just like, if, if this is a conversation that you are, like, already going, I don’t know if I can have this. Read her book, follow her, because the more I do, the more I might able to go, oh, what an interesting thing that I haven’t been able to articulate that was really helpful. Thanks so much, you know. So anyways.

Brad Crowell 27:13
Yeah, well stick around. We’ll be right back. We’re gonna dig into those Be It Action Items that we have with Dr. Celeste Holbrook.

Brad Crowell 27:20
All right. So finally, let’s talk about those Be It Action Items. What bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your convo with Dr. Celeste Holbrook? She said, hey, I’ve got a four-part guide, and you should use it. And she maps it out in detail in her book, but high level, it’s the analyst, the assassin, the healer and the explorer. And I thought, this is kind of cool. And she said, she said, it’s like the archetypal woman. So the analyst helps you understand, what are we actually carrying around? Is the are these mental bags full of shame, full of neglect, full of fear, right? And then the assassin is taking what the analyst has found. So this is like a progression, right? So it’s not just like you’re only stuck in one it seems like this is a progression. So the assassin then is taking what the analyst has found and is just slicing through it, like deconstructing, you know, the, in her case, she’s specifically talking about purity culture, and, like, all the baggage that we’re saddled with from that kind of a thing. And then after the assassin is the healer who facilitates, like, she helping regenerate ideas about sex through, like, education.

Lesley Logan 28:34
Yeah, right. Re-education.

Brad Crowell 28:36
Yeah, gentle re-education about what is sex and what’s okay. And, you know, like, why do we have this guilt around sex and, like, what, like, why does that even like, there’s just a lot of history that blows my mind. Finally, we have the explorer, like, you know where you’ve kind of, after you’ve gone through some healing, you’re now, like, feeling more confident, more willingness to, you know, be like, explore having sex, right? And you know that could be with your partner, with yourself, or whatever, you know. So, yeah, it’s an interesting, like, progression out of.

Lesley Logan 29:11
I think it’s a cool idea of a process, because it it if you think, oh, my god, I have to figure all this out, or you might hear about the explorer part and be like, what the I you can’t even wrap your head around that. It’s because you got to go through the process.

Brad Crowell 29:23
Yeah, and I think it’s great, because it really sets her up. Like, you know, she’s she, she jokingly said a lot of my conversations are pretty boring, like, what? Because she’s got clients, one-on-one, clients and, and it’s not, they’re not like, crazy, like, it’s, it’s not, it’s not, like, telling, not story time. She’s actually, you know, helping people go through the process that she created here. So it depends on what’s, you know, part of the flow that you’re in, you know, might just simply be analysis for a while, you know, and coming to terms with it. And then it won’t be until you’ve come to terms with that you can move on to the next phase. And but what’s great is that she has a process. And I think that’s really cool.

Lesley Logan 30:01
Yeah, she also has a couple other things for you, which is something you can repeat. She said to, free to repeat, I prioritize myself by allowing myself to go at my own pace. I prioritize myself by allowing myself to go at my own pace. I think that is so important, no matter what the topic is, no matter what you’re trying to be it till you see, like, if you got nothing out of this episode but that affirmation, great. And she also, we’ve talked about her being like a slow reader and like her writing and all that stuff. And she, she really learned to prioritize herself and appreciate being considerate and slow and thoughtful. Like, that’s actually her prioritizing herself by her, not quite I’m a slow reader, but instead going, I am a slow reader, so I am going to be considerate and slow and thoughtful. That’s how I do things.

Brad Crowell 30:47
Yeah and give myself the time and space to do that.

Lesley Logan 30:49
I thought that was so cool. Like, what a, what an amazing way to prioritize yourself is to, like, do the things the way you you need to do them.

Brad Crowell 31:00
Yeah and that’s like, you know, across any element of life, it’s not just, you know, around sex, so I think that’s great.

Lesley Logan 31:06
And then finally, she said, and this is for your sexual life, she said, where the goal for sexual choice is to be your decision, and not one manipulated by society or cultural values or religious values, and I think that is so important, because even if you aren’t someone who is religious, but maybe your culture had a different kind of pressure, or a different way of seeing your body, or maybe you feel a different way with society. Your sexual life is your and choices are your decision, and not wanting to be manipulated by anybody else. So I think that’s so important. I just fucking love her. I wish she lived closer. I want to have coffee with her all the time.

Brad Crowell 31:43
Yeah, she was a lot of fun to listen to. And also her story about how her book came to be, what a roller coaster. That was, how cool that, you know, that you were a part of it. I think that’s pretty neat.

Lesley Logan 31:53
Honestly, honestly, like, this is like, you know, like, everything happens for a reason, like how we interviewed him two years ago. Jake. And I forget how Jake got to me. I actually.

Brad Crowell 32:05
I think he was connected through.

Lesley Logan 32:07
Somebody told no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He’s a Christian. Lori Harder friend, person, so somebody sent Jake to me. And then.

Brad Crowell 32:16
Jake Kelfer.

Lesley Logan 32:17
Yeah, and then, and then I watch Celeste stuff, but sometimes she ends up not in my feed because of algorithms. And that day, I just happened to not only watch, but like, actually turn, like, read the whole thing. And I was like, what’s going on? I tap through. I watched every story, and I was and I was just like, call me, I got, so but, like, it’s just like.

Brad Crowell 32:36
Jake. Jake was interviewed on episode 202.

Lesley Logan 32:38
But this is how you, you can’t this is something for me too, we can’t worry, oh my god, what if I missed out on this? Because, like I had I was meant to watch her stories on that day, like I was meant to, because it could have been so easy for me to not pick up my phone that day and not watch them. There was a reason why I opened my phone up and I watched her stories. I do not watch that many people’s stories, and it was because I was supposed to see them and introduce her to Jake. That was my whole goal. That was, like, the universe working for her. Universe was like, okay, Celeste, we’re going to make sure Lesley sees it, because Lesley knows Jake, and you need to know Jake. Boom, it’s done. And, like, she had to write the book. I love it. I love it. I love you, Dr. Celeste Holbrook, I love the book. You guys, go get it. I’m Lesley Logan.

Brad Crowell 33:22
And I’m Brad Crowell.

Lesley Logan 33:23
Thank you so much for being you. Now. Go share this with a friend who needs to hear it, and go get her book. And go leave us a review, because we really appreciate that. And go be it till you see it.

Brad Crowell 33:34
Yeah. And just one last time. Her book is called Missionary Position: A Slightly Irreverent Guide to Sex After Purity Culture.

Lesley Logan 33:41
I love it so much. I love it so much.

Brad Crowell 33:44
Bye for now.

—-

Lesley Logan
That’s all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others to BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!

—-

Lesley Logan
‘Be It Till You See It’ is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @be_it_pod.

Brad Crowell
It’s written, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.

Lesley Logan
It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.

Brad Crowell
Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music and our branding by designer and artist Gianfranco Cioffi.

Lesley Logan
Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.

Brad Crowell
Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.

More Episodes