Growing Out of

Imposter Syndrome

Ep. 108 with Lesley & Brad

“What if this (imposter syndrome) was a positive instead of a negative?”

Lesley Logan

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Show Notes

Mindset has a lot more to do with just feelings and thoughts, it comes down to a science. Engage with Brad and LL as they recap psychologist, Kasey Jo Ordivas and her insights to overcoming fixed vs growth mindset and how it impacts seemingly small thoughts…like cooking 😉

If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at [email protected]. Or leave a comment below!

And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.

In this episode you will learn about:

  • Fixed vs growth mindset
  • Researching your thoughts
  • The seven whys
  • Writing out the feelings around imposter syndrome

Episode References/Links:

Transcript

Lesley Logan 0:01
Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I’m Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I’ve trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it’s the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It’s a practice, not a perfect. Let’s get started.

—-

Brad Crowell 0:46
Hello!

Lesley Logan 0:47
Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co host in life Brad Crowell and I are going to talk about the shifting convo I had with Kasey Jo Orvidas in our last episode. If you haven’t yet listened to that episode, go back, listen to that one, and then come back to this one, or listen to this one and listen to that one, or listen to this one and another one and then come back to that one. You get to do whatever order of podcasts as you want to do. And I’m really excited because if it sounds like we’re in a different room, or if you’re watching this on YouTube, and you’re like, “Whose five year old bedroom are you in?”

Brad Crowell 1:17
Yeah, that sort of feels like, definitely. And it also may sound different than normal because we are not at home.

Lesley Logan 1:26
No, actually. So here’s the deal. I was supposed to be there, there’s so many things that are happening in the world right now. Right? That it’s like you want to do all and I believe in pauses, we believe in the power of the pause and a girlfriend of mine, Kareen Walsh, who was actually and Dr. Kelly Bender, who are both have been guests on this podcast. They were both going to be in Scottsdale while they were both in Scottsdale, Arizona for different conferences at the same time. It’s a 45… (Brad: I didn’t know that.) Yeah. (Brad: Oh) So yeah. So I they’re at different conferences at the same time. And so they’re like, “Hey, do you want to come to Arizona and hang with us?” And I was like, “Yeah, I do.” So I was like, I was like, “Okay, I’m gonna go there.” But then Barely Canadian was supposed to have a fashion show. And they’re like, “Hey, are you gonna be able to come our fashion show?” And I was like, “I think I can do that.” And then you’re like, “I’m so, we’re supposed to go camping.” I was like, “Well, I can do all the things.” So let me just tell you, if you really want to do things, you probably can make it happen. So what was the original plan was I was gonna fly to Arizona, I was gonna hang with Kareen and Kelly, which I did do. But then the fashion show got moved to June 5th, which is my Dad’s birthday, so I can’t do that. However, when we planned this I was like flying from Arizona to LA then taking an Amtrak train to Josh… to Palm Springs where Brad was gonna pick me up in Palm Springs to go to Joshua Tree. Anyways, then this incredible thing happened which was have an amazing phone call interview with this incredible magazine. I didn’t want to miss. So then we had to like add a hotel into there. And then the fashion show got moved. So anyways, fast forward, rewind. I flew from Arizona to hang out with my girlfriends. Then I flew to Palm Springs. I’m in this pretty pretty princess room because it’s the only room available in Palm Springs on a Sunday during all these festivals. And Brad is here. We’re recording these podcasts before we go to Joshua Tree. (Brad: Yeah) Hang out in his cactus garden. (Brad: Heck yeah.) Anyway, (Brad: I’m so excited.) that is not what I was super excited about. (Brad and Lesley laughs) But Brad wanted to make sure, we all wanted…

Brad Crowell 3:21
A little side note. (Lesley: Yeah) Little side note.

Lesley Logan 3:22
We just wanted to make sure that you knew why we’re in a weird space and it’s not a five year old room. This is a hotel room you can you can get this but they didn’t pay me for this podcast, so I’m not telling you who it is. Okay, coming up in a couple of weeks, I am going to be with Erika Quest teaching a six hour pre con at Momentum Fest, if you don’t remember Jessica Valant. She was on our show last year. (Brad: Yeah) She’s incredible. Brad and I love Momentum Fest and Brad’s gonna be there with our booth. I’m teaching at the festival all weekend long. So if you live in Denver, if you can get yourself to Denver, you need to be going to Momentum Fest. So check that out. And …

Brad Crowell 3:57
It’s a movement festival. So it’s not just Pilates. They have all sorts of (Lesley: Yoga … medication) modalities there. Yeah. And and it’s also just a great time. It’s just great people. It’s a really fun vibe. And we’ve we. The first year we did it because our our friends were doing it, hosting it. And we were like, “Oh, well, of course we’ll come in and support you.” (Lesley: Yeah) And it was so much fun. We were like, “Well, you’re gonna do it again next year. Right? Because we’re coming.”

Lesley Logan 4:22
Yeah. And then and then we actually didn’t do the next one.

Brad Crowell 4:26
Well, then the next one we were out of the country.

Lesley Logan 4:29
Yeah, anyways, but we believe in it so much. We sent everyone there and we have gone back every year since (Brad: Yeah) we’re really excited about it. We’ll have the flashcards there, we’ve got the book there. It’s just a lot of fun. There’s a solstice party. You can buy one day tickets today tickets, you can buy the pre con without coming or you can come to the whole thing. Just get your Thass two at Momentum Fest. Okay. And then one more thing I’m super excited about because it’s coming up quick. I can’t believe how fast this summer is going, Brad. (Brad: Yeah, I know.) So (Brad: It’s already May.) eLevate if you remember if you’ve been listening for a long time ‘eLevate’ is my mentorship program for Pilates instructors who are wanting to elevate their practice, their connection to the method and how they teach the method. And our first round sold out. It’s been incredible to nine month program. Anyways, we’re about to open up the doors for the second round. Yes, I said second round, I’m going to do it after all, we are just confirming all the dates around the retreats, but we’re taking fewer people this time. So if you are wanting to be on invited to that mentorship, you actually need to do need to get on to the waitlist, because we are going to invite those people first. First come, first serve applications. So you need to go to um, where did they need to go, Brad?

Brad Crowell 5:38
lesleylogan.co/elevate

Lesley Logan 5:43
Great, great, so you’re gonna go there to get on the waitlist? Okay. We have an audience question, I think. (Brad: Yeah) This is funny. This one made me laugh.

Brad Crowell 5:52
Well, I’ll, I will let you read it because (Lesley: Okay) it’s about me.

Lesley Logan 5:56
Yeah. So I got a question. Did I see that Brad does have an Instagram account. And it’s been kind of funny, because the whole time it’s like Brad’s not on Instagram. He’s not on social. He’s not on social but Brad, did you, did you?

Brad Crowell 6:09
I totally did. I was I was inspired by our publicist. She said, “Brad, you talk about cactuses so much. You should have an Instagram about that.” And I was like, “I would totally do that. I’m totally doing that.” And so we brainstormed a lot of different names and ultimately got cactus daddie, that’s @cactus_daddie, d a d d i e. (Lesley: Yeah) And so if you love seeing plants that somehow magically survive in jungles and deserts, cactus, cacti, they all, they do, succulents as well. I’m infatuated with them. And everywhere I go, now, they just kind of jump out at me and I take pictures of them. And it’s just a lot of fun. (Lesley: Yeah) So come join me.

Lesley Logan 6:58
Come join him. If you want to see the cactuses. He’s already been getting feedback on on his account. So (Brad and Lesley laughs) (Brad: I have.) So you know, what? Every… no one is immune to feedback on their social media. All right.

Brad Crowell 7:14
All right. Let’s talk about Kasey Jo Orvidas. Obsessed with the connection between mindset and health behaviors. Kasey Jo went and got a Ph.D in Psychology to study growth versus the fixed mindset. Okay. Growth versus fixed. And that’s key. It was a great conversation. She then developed her own program, health mindset, coaching certification, and started her health and fitness coaching business, KJO coaching. She’s a determined woman working to blend psychology and health to help her clients develop lasting change. (Lesley: Yeah) And I just wanted to say, first off, I had no idea that like, mindset wasn’t just a concept, but it was a science. There’s science behind mindset.

Lesley Logan 8:01
I know. Everyone thinks, it’s o, it’s a woowoo. But it’s it’s actually completely scientifically based. So

Brad Crowell 8:06
Yeah, so like this, you know, I guess it made sense to me that she studied Psychology, of course. But then after getting the the foundation her… you know, in psychology, then went on to do her study and mindset. And so that found that really, really surprising. (Lesley: Yeah) I didn’t know that.

Lesley Logan 8:24
I love it. I love it. Well, you mentioned this already in her bio. So I’m gonna start with it. One thing I love that she talked about, is the growth versus six fixed mindset. And I think this is really a cool topic. It’s, I find that when we can, we can actually like, label something, it makes it easier for us to understand what’s happening. So I this weekend had a completely, a complete moment of a fixed mindset. And so just so you know, I think we talked about this in the podcast interview, you don’t just like, you don’t just like get a growth mindset and like, you’re done. Like, nailed it, right? Like, you actually have to keep working at that. So, so just so you know, if you have days where you like, are like abundance, like I can do it all and like, like, you don’t see things as holding you back, or like you don’t see someone else’s success as a reason you can’t have it. That doesn’t mean you’re never going to have those moments where you’re like, “I can’t, you know, or this isn’t working. I’m not good enough.” Like you’re gonna have you’re a human being. But …

Brad Crowell 9:23
Well also too, there’s more than it’s not like you’re not like chasing the the the mindset unicorn and once you’ve caught the unicorn, you’re good for the rest of your life. (Lesley: Right) It’s also like spread out across different topics, too. Right? You may have really worked on your money mindset, let’s say (Lesley: Yeah) but your you know, your confidence in yourself in dating, maybe isn’t there right so you’re … it’s it’s not like once you got it one place. You nailed it everywhere, either.

Lesley Logan 9:56
Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s really important, because I think that’s where like, we’re gonna talk about this later on the episode but like, I think that’s where impostor syndrome comes in, because you like, you feel like you’re good here, but you’re not good there. I see this with our Agency members all the time. They’re like, “Give it, I got it here. And now I don’t have it here.” And it’s like, right, because it’s …

Brad Crowell 10:11
I mean, Kasey talked about that, (Lesley: Yeah) too. She, she’s, like, you know, even after five years of studying mindset, and understanding, you know, everything behind it, the foundation of it and why it happens. She said, she still catches herself, limiting herself and creating these limiting beliefs of like, “I always. I can’t. Not that’s not for me,” like these kinds of words that are associated with (Lesley: Yeah) a fixed (Lesley: Yeah) mindset as opposed to a growth mindset. And, and I …

Lesley Logan 10:40
Oh, I think we talked about this on Michael Unbroken’s episode, like, the worst thing you can say is, that’s just who I am.

Brad Crowell 10:44
Yes, that’s the worst thing you could say. That was the episode, that was a great episode.

Lesley Logan 10:48
That’s a fixed mindset. So, (Brad: Right) I highly recommend, you know, think about listen to the words you’re saying, if it’s can’t, not good enough. I’m not, I don’t know enough or (Brad: That’s not for me.) That’s, um, that’s just who I am. (Brad: Yeah) Just explore those. It’s okay to like, look, there’s like, I’m not like, not a lot of foods are for me, but… Right? So like, that’s fine. But, but like this, be mindful of what you’re saying about yourself because that fixed mindset could be like, literally starts to limit you. And like limit you in other areas.

Brad Crowell 11:23
I think this is a great opportunity to talk about the ‘why’. (Lesley: The ‘why’?) Yeah, you know, the whys of… Asking yourself the seven why’s, (Lesley: Oh yeah) you know, like that this is …

Lesley Logan 11:38
So funny, I just saw him. (Brad: Oh, really?) (Lesley laughs) Yeah. So, so the Seven Layers to Why is from Dean Graziosi. And the most hilarious thing is I just tell Brad, “Hey, I just saw him while I was having breakfast with Kareen in Arizona.” (Brad: Ha!) So like, so speaking of Dean, you weren’t in that part of the conversation but now you are. It’s just like, why do, his is more like, “Why do you wanted this?” Like, “Why do I want to write a book?” “Because I want to get my message out there.” “Why don’t we get your message out there?” “Because my message can change lives.” “Why do you want to change lives?” “Because I grew up with people who told me I couldn’t do anything.” Like, “Why is that important to you? Why, why?” Why until you get to the whole thing, (Lesley: Yeah) which is like, I don’t ever want anyone to ever live in a world where they can’t believe in what they do. Like or I don’t (Brad: Yeah) like it’s not, you know, so

Brad Crowell 12:27
It’s a fascinating dive into your own thinking and this is actually something that we didn’t pick as a talking point but Kasey Jo was talking about researching your own mind and listening to the words that circulate in your own thoughts and then you know, but this researching your own mind that is a great tool, the ‘whys’ is a great tool to to (Lesley: Yeah) understanding yourself.

Lesley Logan 12:56
And you can also go, you can also do the, “Why do I think that? Who told me that?” And that goes (Brad: Yeah) like Thor. Right? When we have that guests Thor, (Brad: Sure) he says, “I can’t do that.” And and you know, Byron Katie talks about this a lot, where just like, it’s like, “Who would you be if you didn’t have this fixed mindset? Who would you be if you didn’t have the thought you couldn’t do the thing?” You’d be the (Brad: Or) person you can do the thing.

Brad Crowell 13:14
Or what would the person who could do that thing? What would they be doing? (Lesley: Yeah) Or how would they be thinking?

Lesley Logan 13:20
Oh, hey, be it till you see it. (Brad: Hey) I said hey. (Brad laughs) We can just go on and on about this whole thing. It could be, I mean, it should be its own episode, we just had it with Kasey. So at any rate, I think it’s a wrap this up a little bow and it kind of leads into your thing. It is okay, if you have a fixed mindset moment, it’s going to, you’re human being. (Brad: Yeah) What you then need to do is explore that in your mind, in an, in writing, in conversation with others around it so that you can pull it into, so you can pull yourself into a growth mindset aspect. And what will happen is you’ll get faster and faster at doing this you’re fixed mindset. (Brad: Right. You’ll identify it.) might take you six months to get over them but then after that you were able to in six weeks and then in six days and then it’s in six minutes. You’re like, “Oh what is that thought? Oh hello old thought coming back in. Nice to see you. We don’t agree with that anymore.” You know, like you get to there’s the author of Chatter like people use their own name to talk though to themselves when they were trying to like train a thought over and it you might think a crazy person but you’re not like it was actually science around that. So anyways, I’m obsessed. I’m obsessed with it. Anyways, what did you love?

Brad Crowell 14:28
Well, I am so I’m glad we’re we’re digging into growth versus fixed mindset because I know that’s one of the things we talked about so much on the show and in our webinars with Profitable Pilates. But one of the consistently recurring struggles that we’ve been told people are really digging into is imposter syndrome. And also, I mean or experiencing, not necessarily digging into but experiencing. And I know this is something that I also deal with, you also deal with impostor syndrome. (Lesley: Oh) Right. (Lesley: Yeah) And when we when we talk about impostor syndrome. I know it makes me feel small. Like, it makes me feel like like, “Oh, yeah, you know, like, I’m just not good enough for the thing, or I, why am I? How, why are people listening to me? How (Lesley: Yeah) do I have the authority to do all this kind of stuff?” And one, I want to kind of flip this, the perspective of it. Typically, we associated with fear, negativity. Right?

Lesley Logan 15:37
How about we go in, people go into I see it all the time, the people we coach, or even in our OPC group, where they feel like an impostor, they go into like a shame spiral. And then it goes into a fixed mindset. And then it’s (Brad: Right) like this whole thing. And it’s like, yeah,

Brad Crowell 15:47
Well, so I want to flip it, though, because one thing that Kasey Jo mentioned, was having imposter syndrome definitely means you’re not a narcissist. (Lesley: Right. So it’s not a bad thing.) So it doesn’t necessarily have to be a bad thing. Like (Lesley: Yeah) sometimes, I think it’s helpful to acknowledge that, you know, we really do care about our work, we do care that we’re conveying a message that is going to be helpful for people and beneficial for people. You know, so it’s funny, because everything has a plus and a minus even impostor syndrome.

Lesley Logan 16:23
Well, I also think like, it shows you care. (Brad: Yeah) It just shows you care. And also, it might even show you that you know, more because when you know more than you know, you don’t know, you don’t know. (Brad: Oh, yeah.) Do you know what I mean?

Brad Crowell 16:35
That’s another that’s another thing that two of you talked about.

Lesley Logan 16:37
The more that you know, the more you learn what you don’t know, and that like (Brad: Yeah) creates his own impo… Like, yeah. It is, like new level, new devil. So you know, I think I love that you brought this up, because I think it’s just, it’s okay to just call it out. I’m feeling or we do this all the time in the house. (Brad: Yeah) It’s like, I’m feeling impostor syndrome around this right now. And then when you pull it out of your head, it’s all of a sudden, like, it doesn’t actually have the power anymore, doesn’t mean you don’t have the feelings anymore. But it doesn’t have that power. And then you can actually talk about it. And sometimes it can feel really silly, or sometimes it can go, “Oh, it’s because I’m not doing this thing over here. Because I’m not doing this thing over here. I have impostor syndrome about this because I don’t feel authentic. Okay, so know I know what I need to work on.”

Brad Crowell 17:21
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and, and one thing you can do is actually write this down. Because I find it a lot easier when I’m looking at something is, then I can, kind of analyze it from the other side. But this is all mindset, right? Like, when you when you’re receiving something in and it’s negative, well, how do we from an objective perspective, like third party? What if you could stand on the side of yourself and look at this happening to you? How do you look at it and see what could be positive about that? Right? So if you’re experiencing impostor syndrome, in a way of like, “I don’t know why I’m the one that was picked to teach this class” or something like that, write that down. And then I think that will allow you like, “I don’t know why I was picked for this,” you know, then it will allow you to go, “Maybe I was picked for this for something else.” And you can kind of see that. (Lesley: Yeah) When I’m, when you’re looking at it, I find it’s easier. And it’s this is a very strange internal dialogue. And it’s only really started to be available since I started doing journaling. Because I’ve never really written things down, especially my feelings in that way. Or like what I’m struggling with or worried about. And you know, it when you’re just writing it out, suddenly, you can can say, “Alright, well, what if, what if this was a positive for me instead of a negative? How does that look? What is that actually?” (Lesley: Yeah) And then you can focus on that.

Lesley Logan 18:52
Yeah, and maybe, maybe write down the questions you’re gonna ask yourself, when you’re having impostor syndrome, when you’re not having it so that you have this list next to your desk. So it’s like I don’t like then you can like go through the questions that work for you. I really liked that.

Cool!

All right. So finally, let’s talk about those BE IT action items that you covered with Kasey Jo Orvidas. What bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your convo? I will jump in right here. And we, I kind of already hit hinted at this actually looks like I ended up both of ours. But researching your thoughts. We were talking about those seven why’s. Where did this thought come from? So if you this is the fixed versus open growth, sorry, growth mindsets, right? Where did that thought come from? Was that like something you inherited from a family member or from a teacher from another friend of yours, from an experience that personally happened to you? Why is that thought there? Is that thought really true? What is the evidence for that thought being true? What is the evidence against that thought? And then, you know, be basically like, a researcher of your own mindset, your own mentality. You know, why are you doing the things that you’re doing and, and be willing to actually look at it?

Yeah, I really love that. I mean, we did this when we were doing the Artist’s Way. And like, (Brad: Yeah) I like was like, “Oh, I don’t cook.” Because of this one time, my grandfather yelled at me about how I made a grilled cheese sandwich. Is that really like, what stopped me from learning how to cook?

Brad Crowell 20:34
And also, (Lesley: Like so silly.) Well, it’s also, you know, funny, because I think that is a fascinating example. In that you never told me that story before. (Lesley: I know.) And we’d been married for a long time. And I never heard that. And suddenly, through the process of journaling, you were like, “I just remembered something. (Lesley: Yeah) And I wonder, I wonder if this is part of my mindset (Lesley: Yeah) around cooking.”

Lesley Logan 21:03
Yeah. And you know, I mean, like, and I know that sounds like the Lesley it’s just cooking. It’s like, yeah, but that stop, that has stopped me from cooking for years, y’all. Like, we’re talking Brad goes away. And I’m like, “I think I’m have some almonds for dinner. I think that’s good. That’s good.” (Brad and Lesley laughs) Thank God for Postmates. Okay, here’s me …

Brad Crowell 21:23
Well, I just want to give you to a little shout out since discovering that. What were the action items that you took?

Lesley Logan 21:31
Oh, I started cooking a new recipe a week from this new co… from this cookbook from a restaurant that I love in Siem Reap. And I would have cooked a new recipe this week. But Brad cooked my cauliflower. And that was supposed to be for cauliflower bites. So we will we will start that when we get back. We will, I will put all of a big fat post it note, “Don’t cook this head of cauliflower. It’s for my new experiment.”

Brad Crowell 21:53
That’s so funny. I didn’t know that. But but but the reason I wanted to keep talking about this is because you identified it. Right? And then you talked about it. And then you made a, you made a decision. (Lesley: Yeah) And you took action and …

Lesley Logan 22:10
Well, it goes into my my BE IT action item. It says, “Write it out. What can you start today?” (Brad: There you go.) And thank you for setting me up for that. (Brad laughs) And so what, that’s what I did, like I was like, “Okay, how..” Like, “How can I start something small today?” I don’t want to take a cooking class, you all. Like I know I’m on a hobby hunt. That is not something I want. I don’t want that kind of pressure. I just wanted it to be fun and easy. And so the first thing I made were these like fudge brownie, there’s suppose to be balls, but I made them bites and they are amazing. And so it was like what I looked at all the recipes that I looked at which one would be the easiest one to start with. I did not take on, there was this one that I was like, “I love that recipe.” But I didn’t take it on because it was like a little bit outside my element. So I took on what I could and so I did write it out. I did look at it. And I thought about like, “Okay, what are some ways I can make this happen?” And you know, we have a lot of people who talk about writing things out in their BE IT action items. And this one was really specific. What can you literally do starting today? And so I feel like that’s an even better BE IT action item then just to write it out. It’s like, what is it that you can do right now? (Brad: Yeah) Because if you start writing out like, “Oh, I actually could start that one.” And like you keep going, you end up getting a step that you can take. And it’s going to actually tell your brain, “Oh, growth mindset. I’m taking a step forward in this.” (Brad: Right) It’s going to be the antidote to fear we talk about in every one of these episodes …

You got the micro win (Lesley: Yeah) that helps you celebrate, (Lesley: Yeah) that helps your mindset. (Lesley: Yeah) Gives you confidence.

Yeah, so I’ve actually like I have I have also been making my own lunch now. Like every like Brad is not (Brad: Yeah) watching me go.

Brad Crowell 23:46
And it’s actually a real lunch.

Lesley Logan 23:47
It is a real lunch. It is, we have more dishes to do every day now. So anyways, that’s the other side of that. Well, I’m Lesley Logan.

Brad Crowell 23:56
And I’m Brad Crowell.

Lesley Logan 23:57
How are we going to use these tips in your life? Let us know. I want you to screenshot this episode, tag the @be_it_pod, you can now tag @cactus_daddie, can also tag @coachkaseyjo with your takeaways. Please do this. So we know what you’re doing. We want to celebrate you. We want to be cheerleaders for you and your DMs because we know how much you need that. I need that. We’re all human beings. It’s okay to need people to high five you for what you’re doing. So tag us and let us know how you’re gonna do this and share it with someone else who needs this. If you have a friend in your life who’s like, “Ooh, we got to fix mindset that’s driving me nuts.” Just send them this episode and it’ll just you don’t have to say anything. It’ll just nudge him right along. So thank you so much. And until next time, Be It Till You See It.

Brad Crowell 24:36
Bye for now.

Lesley Logan
That’s all I’ve got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over on IG at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us help others to BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!

Lesley Logan
‘Be It Till You See It’ is a production of ‘As The Crows Fly Media’.

Brad Crowell
It’s written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.

Lesley Logan
Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.

Brad Crowell
Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.

Lesley Logan
Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can’t see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all video each week so you can.

Brad Crowell
And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each of our episodes so you can find them on our website. And, finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.

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