How To Rebuild And
Transform Yourself
After Betrayal

Ep. 349 Dr. Debi Silber

“Betrayal lends itself to creating an entirely new version of you.”

Dr. Debi Silber

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Dr. Debi Silber is the founder of the PBT (Post Betrayal Transformation) Institute and is a holistic psychologist, a health, mindset and personal development expert, the author of Trust Again, and is a 2-time #1 International bestselling author of: The Unshakable Woman AND From Hardened to Healed. Her podcast: From Betrayal to Breakthrough is also globally ranked within the top 1.5% of podcasts. Her recent PhD study on how we experience betrayal made 3 groundbreaking discoveries that changes how long it takes to heal. In addition to being on FOX, CBS, The Dr. Oz Show, TEDx (twice) and more, she’s an award-winning speaker and coach dedicated to helping people move past their betrayals as well as any other blocks preventing them from the health, work, relationships, confidence, and happiness they want most.

Show Notes

In this insightful episode, Debi Silber, PhD and founder of the PBT Institute, shares her expertise on overcoming the profound effects of betrayal. Drawing from personal experiences and her groundbreaking research, Silber unveils the stages of Post Betrayal Transformation, offering hope and actionable strategies for healing. Discover the connections between betrayal, health, and personal growth, and learn how to reconstruct a stronger, more resilient self after trust is shattered.

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In this episode you will learn about:

  • The psychological differences between betrayal and other traumas.
  • Key discoveries from Dr. Debi Silber’s studies on betrayal.
  • The PBT Institute’s approach to facilitating stages of overcoming betrayal.
  • Strategies for strengthening personal boundaries to prevent future betrayals.
  • The importance of addressing betrayal at its root for true healing.

Episode References/Links:


Debi Silber: We actually discovered that there’s this collection of symptoms, physical, mental and emotional, so common to betrayal, it’s now known as post betrayal syndrome. And it what’s so interesting is we’ve had I don’t know easily 95,000 plus people take our post betrayal syndrome quiz on our site, to see to what extent they’re struggling. We’ve all been taught time heals all wounds. I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that’s not true.



Lesley Logan
Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I’m Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I’ve trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it’s the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It’s a practice, not a perfect. Let’s get started.


Lesley Logan 1:09
Okay, I got some hot topic and this is gonna feel a little juicy but maybe not at all, actually. But, when I discovered today’s guest and what they talk about, I was like, oh, yeah, we have not talked about this not in a high-level way. We’ve definitely had guests come on, who have shared how they’re betrayed in their life, and then how they’ve made it to where they are today just inspire you to be it till you see it. But we’ve actually never had a like expert on the topic of betrayal. And I really enjoyed it. I feel like I just went to a whole study class on betrayal. I feel like I’m really aware of it. And I already have three people I want to share this episode. It’s not even ready yet. I just I’m like literally finished recording it. And I’m like, oh my gosh, I have to send this to this person, I have to send this to this person. And so my hope is, is that today’s episode, betrayal not only educates you. And maybe what you’re going through what’s keeping you from being until you see it is an old betrayal. And that can really suck to admit to, you know, like to, to think that like 20 years ago, something happened to you and you haven’t yet healed from that. And I just to make sure you know that that’s okay. You’re not the only one. You’re not the first person. You’re not the last person. But hopefully with today’s guest, Dr. Debi Silber, we can start to heal. And we can all go from a place of being betrayed and wanting to take over our lives to actually making it make our lives right where they can be. And so this episode goes through a lot of statistics, a lot of information as symptoms you might be feeling in your life that could all be from a betrayal in your life and also the ways you can get out of it. So I’m really excited for this episode. I think it’s gonna be really awesome. And again, I do think it’s one of those ones you’re gonna share with your friends right now because I’m about to send this information to mine. So have an amazing day and I cannot wait to hear your takeaways. And here’s Dr. Debi Silber.

Lesley Logan 3:09
All right, Be It babe. I’m really excited for today’s topic. Actually, I don’t think we’ve even discussed this topic on the podcast and it is 100% aligned, aligned with us being until we see it. So we have Dr. Debi Silber, here. She is an amazing person who has truly forged her own path and is helping people on the topic of betrayal. So Dr. Debi Silber, will you please introduce yourself and tell everyone who you are and what you rock at?

Debi Silber 3:33
Sure, looking forward to this conversation. So I am the founder and CEO of the PBT Post Betrayal Transformation Institute, I mean, clearly you don’t study something like betrayal unless you have to. So I’m in business over 30 years – health, mindset, personal development, and then I had a really painful betrayal from my family thought I did everything I needed to do to heal from that. And then it happened again, a few years later, this time it was my husband, that was the deal breaker got him out of the house, looked at the two experiences thinking well, what’s similar to these two, of course, me, but what else? And I realized, you know, boundaries, were always getting crossed, never took my lead seriously. And I am one of those people that believes if nothing changes, nothing changes. So here it was four kids, six dogs, a thriving business and I said, you know, a book wasn’t gonna get me out of this jam, I needed a whole Ph.D. in it. So I did I enrolled in a Ph.D. program in transpersonal psychology, the psychology of transformation and human potential. Because I was changing so much I didn’t quite understand it. He was too, wasn’t ready to look at that. And then it was time to do a study. So I studied betrayal. What holds us back what helps us heal and what happens to us physically, mentally and emotionally when the people closest to us lie, cheat and deceive? That study led to three groundbreaking discoveries which changed my health, my family, my work, my life.

Lesley Logan 4:51
Okay, I mean, crazy amazing. No, not that I would ever wish betrayal on anybody but like, thank goodness, we’re able to take your betrayal and make it what it is because I, if you start to think about the different things that could happen to you that can really prevent you from living the life you want to live and betrayal is this one thing where you can see people in your life or maybe someone listening right now, like that is the thing that’s keeping them from showing up in the world. Because the last time they did it, they got betrayed or whatever. So I just think that like, this is an amazing topic, can we just like, go down to the 101 of what betrayal is just in case people are like, I’ve never been betrayed before, my life is fine.

Debi Silber 5:33
Sure. Yeah and then maybe it is. Well, I define it as the breaking of a spoken or unspoken rule, and every relationship has them. So the way it works is the more we trust, and the more we depend on that person, the deeper the betrayal. So for example, a child who is totally dependent on their parent, and the parent does something awful. That’s going to have a different impact than let’s say, your best friend sharing your secret, you’re co-worker taking credit for your idea. Still a betrayal, different level of cleanup.

Lesley Logan 6:00
Yeah, yeah. So you know. Yeah, I mean, that’s a really interesting way of putting it like the stronger the bond, the deeper the betrayal. Okay, so then you start to go through and try to figure out what works to heal from betrayal. Obviously, there’s some things that people can do that are better than others, like, what is the process of like? Is it first just recognizing that you’ve been betrayed? Is it going within? Is it you screaming and yelling at the other person?

Debi Silber 6:27
Yes, yes, yes. You know, it’s all of those depending on where you’re at, the first thing is, you know, you have to know where you know what betrayal does, and that’s where that’s where the discoveries really came in. So I’m happy to share what they are, because that’ll give such context to what we’re talking about. So at first I was studying and like, I had a feeling betrayal was a different type of trauma, then, you know, death of a loved one disease, natural disaster, like I had been through death of a loved one. And I’ve been through disease, and I was like, You know what? Betrayal feels different. I didn’t want to assume that it was the same for everyone in my study, so I asked them, if you’ve been through other types of trauma, traumas, does betrayal feel different for you unanimously? This one, oh, my gosh, it’s so different. And here’s why. Because it feels so intentional. We take it so personally. So the entire self gets shattered and has to be rebuilt. rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust, like they’re all demolished and have to be rebuilt. Like for example, if you lose someone you love, you grieve, you’re sad, you mourn the loss, life will never be the same. But you don’t question the relationship. You don’t question the trust, you don’t question your sanity, betrayal, has you questioning all of it. So that type of healing needed its own name, which is now called post betrayal transformation, that complete and total rebuild of your life and yourself after an experience with betrayal. So that betrayal is a different type of trauma, that was the first discovery. The second one was, we actually discovered that there’s this collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional, so common to betrayal, it’s now known as post betrayal syndrome. And it what’s so interesting is we’ve had, I don’t know, easily 95,000 plus people take our post betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they’re struggling. We’ve all been taught time heals all wounds. I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that’s not true. There’s a question on the quiz that says is there anything else you’d like to share? And people write things like, you know, my betrayal happened 35 years ago, I’m unwilling to trust. My betrayal happened, you know, 10 years ago feels like it happened yesterday. My betrayal happened 15 years years ago, I feel gutted. So we know you cannot count on time. Or you can’t even count on a new relationship to heal betrayal. Healing needs to be deliberate and intentional. And, you know, I’m happy to share some of those stats from the quiz if that would serve you.

Lesley Logan 6:33
Yeah, I am like, fascinated. Because you, we’ve all seen it, like we’ve all had that family member who like something happened to them. And they were never, they were never the same again. And it can be so easy, like, oh my gosh, like they could just have like, gotten over it. Like they should just get over it. And part of me is like maybe like, for some reason, my brain is going like betrayal. At some point, you might even think that you betrayed yourself. Like, it’s almost like, it’s like you could reverse the betrayal that you did it to you. Because I trusted them. Oh, I I didn’t listen to that red flag that I’ve had, like, you start to like, take it on as you did it to you.

Debi Silber 9:35
And everything you’re saying about the stuckness, I’m going to talk about that in the third discovery. But yeah, I mean, these symptoms are so classic for post betrayal syndrome, and here’s the thing, we associate it because let’s say the betrayal happened years ago, you know, we’re like, well, clearly it’s not from that. Oh, but yes, it is. And but we think because it was so long ago, it’s got to be from aging. It’s got to just be from daily stress. No, it’s not. It’s from an unhealed betrayal. So.

Lesley Logan 10:01
Let’s go to the next one. I love this. Yeah.

Debi Silber 10:03
Yeah. So do you want me to read the stats?

Lesley Logan 10:06
Yeah, let’s read it.

Debi Silber 10:07
So, out of 95,000 plus people, men, women just about every country’s represented, 78% constantly revisit their experience, 81% feel a loss of personal power, 80% are hypervigilant, I mean that’s exhausting, 94% deal with painful triggers. These are the most common physical symptoms: 71% have low energy, 68% have sleep issues, 63% have extreme fatigue, your adrenals have tanked, 47% of weight changes. So in the beginning, maybe you can hold food down, later on you’re an emotional eater, you’re using food for comfort, 45% have a digestive issue and that could be anything Crohn’s, IBS, diverticulitis, constipation, diarrhea, bloating, anything. The most common mental symptoms: 78% are overwhelmed, 70% are walking around in a state of disbelief, 68% can’t focus, 64% are in shock, 62% can’t concentrate. So imagine you can’t concentrate, you have a gut issue, you’re exhausted. You still have to feed your kids. You still have to work.

Lesley Logan 11:16
Oh, and all this is compounding. So like, and what’s crazy to me is like, it’s the majority, of all this is like a majority. So it’s not like, some people have betrayal experiences and some people experience, it’s like, well, they’re all pretty much experiencing these things. And it’s just, that is, all of that is exhausting. And you got to show up and then you have these expectations on yourself, and you can’t meet them. So that’s another spiral.

Debi Silber 11:40

Oh, yeah, you’re so right. And that’s not even the emotional issues. So emotionally, 88% experienced extreme sadness, 83% are very angry and you just bounce back and forth between those two emotions all day long it’s debilitating, 82% feel hurt, 80% have anxiety, 79% are stressed. Just a few more. Here’s why I wrote the book Trust Again, 84% have an inability to trust, 67% I hope that landed, that’s huge, 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they’re afraid of being hurt again, 82% find it hard to move forward, 90% want to move forward but they don’t know how.

Lesley Logan 12:22
Yeah, like, it’s like this. There’s, it’s not like they don’t want their life back. But they don’t know the next steps. Because moving on, everything we’ve ever been told, just get over it, you’ll meet someone else or like, it’s that hurt people hurt people. So they were just hurting. Like, it’s none of that stuff is really helpful for you to build trust again. And also. And the thing about trust, which I’m sure you talked about in your book, and we can go into that is like you like to build trust, you have to trust like you actually have to be vulnerable in the beginning of a relationship. So that trust is built, but people want trust to be there before they’re vulnerable once they’ve gone through something like that. And so, is that kind of why you, is that what you talk about in the book Trust Again, is that like, one of the things?

Debi Silber 13:07
It is what, it definitely is one of the things and just to wrap up the post betrayal syndrome stats, think about it, you didn’t hear me say one thing that said, you know, 20% 30%, these numbers are super high. They’re also not necessarily from a recent betrayal. So this could be from that parent who did something awful when you were a kid, this could be from the girlfriend or boyfriend who broke your heart in high school. So think about this, that person may not know care, remember, they may not even be alive. And here we are decades later with these symptoms, because we haven’t healed it from way back then. That’s the trick. That’s the crime. The good news is you can heal from all of it, which was the third discovery.

Lesley Logan 13:47
Yeah. So okay. I do want to know how we can heal from it.

Debi Silber 13:50
Yeah, and then and then I’ll circle back to if you want, how to know, you know, when you said about, you know, being willing to trust and unwilling and, and putting the big wall up and all those things maybe I can (inaudible). So the third discovery, this, to me was the most exciting. And what was discovered was while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime and so many people do, if we’re going to fully heal, and by fully heal, I mean, symptoms of post betrayal syndrome that I just shared to that completely rebuilt place of you’re whole, healed, complete of post betrayal transformation. To get from one to the next, we’re going to move through five proven predictable stages. And what’s even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally and emotionally. At every one of those stages. And we know what it takes to move from one stage to the next. Healing is entirely predictable. Happy to go through the stages if you want.

Lesley Logan 14:50
Yeah, I do. I love this. I had no idea it could be so predictable. So I want to hear.

Debi Silber 14:55
And that’s the thing. I mean, there’s a roadmap now for it. And so it’s all mapped out in Trust Again, it’s all we do within the PBT Institute. It’s where all of our coaches are certified in, moving people through the five stages, but I’ll share them briefly here. So, stage one, if, you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with everybody, me too, was a heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual, feeling and being. Well, if there’s a table with only two legs, it’s easy for that table to topple over. That’s us. Stage two, shock, trauma, D Day, discovery day, the scariest of all of the stages. And this is the breakdown of the body, the mind and the worldview. Right here, you got the news, you’ve ignited the stress response, you are now headed for every single stress-related symptom, illness, condition disease. Your mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. You cannot wrap your mind around what you just learned. This makes no sense. And your worldview has just been shattered. Your worldview is your mental model, the rules that govern us that prevent chaos, don’t go there, trust this person, this is how life works. And in one earth-shattering moment or series of moments. Every rule you’ve known and you’ve held to be real and true, is no longer the bottom has truly bottomed out from you. And the new bottom hasn’t been formed yet. I remember a study participant saying you know what it feels like. It felt like, it felt like every negative emotion you can imagine, getting punched in the stomach and losing a child and a crowd all at the same time. It’s awful. Think about it.

Lesley Logan 16:30
Like you’re searching, you’re searching and searching, you’re adrenaline’s going to find something. And you just been like crippled at the same time. So you can’t even do it. Yeah, that is so (inaudible).

Debi Silber 16:51
Yeah, it’s visceral. So but think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do, you’d grab hold of anything or anyone you could to stay safe and stay alive. And that stage three, survival instincts emerge. It’s the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can help me get out of my way, how do I survive this experience? Where do I go? Who can I trust? How do I feed my kids? Here’s the trap, though. Stage three, by far hands down is the most common place we get stuck. You know, so many people in this stage and I will explain it you will see. This is the place we get stuck and here’s why. Once we’ve figured out how to survive our experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where we just came from, we think it’s good. And be like, okay, I got this. And because we don’t know there’s anywhere else to go. We park here, we plant roots here we’re not supposed to. But we don’t know that. And four things have, a transformation doesn’t even begin (inaudible) work. But we don’t know anything about that. So we plant roots here. And these four things happen. The first thing is, we start getting all these small self-benefits from being here. We get our story. We like our story. We get to be right, we like being right, you know, we get a target for anger, we get someone to blame. We don’t have to do the hard work of learning to trust again. Can I trust you? Should I trust you? Forget it, I’m not trusting anybody. So we plant deeper roots. Again, we’re not supposed to but we don’t know. And now because you know that you know we’re here longer than we should be. We start thinking things like well, you know, maybe you’re not that great. Maybe you deserved it. Maybe this maybe that. So we plant deeper roots. And now because these are the thoughts we’re thinking, well this is the energy we’re putting out. Like energy attracts like energy. So now we start calling situations, circumstances and relationships towards us to confirm yep, this is exactly where you belong.

Lesley Logan 18:49
Yeah, it’s like cognitive bias whatever yeah, right it’s a whole like you’re just I think this, I see this, it’s proved me correct.

Debi Silber 18:58
And your mind will find you as much confirming evidence as you want to see and then you also the misery loves company crowd comes along now to. Here’s also where you find that support group that like in an awful club where it’s like this happened to me oh, you think that’s bad? This happened to me? And now you found your people. Yeah, so your (inaudible) to grow because you don’t want to outgrow your people. The longer you’re here the harder it gets to leave because this becomes your identity. It gets worse but I’ll get you out. Because you feel so bad, but you don’t know there’s anywhere else to go you resign yourself right here you’re like this stinks but like I have to get through my day. You have to, I have to go to work, I have to be with my kids. So right here is where you start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, keeping busy whatever it is to numb avoid and distract yourself. So think about it. You do it for a day, a week, month now to happen a year, 10 years, 20 years. I can seriously see someone 20 years later and say you know that emotional eating you’re doing or that drinking you’re doing, do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? And they would look at me like I’m crazy. (Inaudible) 20 years ago, all they did was put themselves in stage three, and stay there. Does that make sense?

Lesley Logan 20:10
Yeah. Oh, it totally does. And I think like, it’s so interesting because the the world would have you think, oh, well, if you’re emotionally eating, then you should just eat fewer calories and like, go deal with your emotions. But it’s like, it’s not even. It’s not a, it’s not a conscious awareness that those two go together. And also, you just try to mask that, like, oh, I’ll just eat less. It sets you up for failure, you’re going to screw up, because that’s just human just gonna happen. And so then you’re even more, you’re stuck, because you’re like, I’m not even.

Debi Silber 20:43
Right. And that’s why it’s so common to stay there. And you know, it’s interesting, because Trust Again maps out the five stages, but that’s why I wrote (inaudible) hard to heal them, like you’ve been through the worst of it already. What in the world are you doing staying stuck in stage three, from harmed to healed is just for stage three, because that’s where most people live at stake for life. And you and if you remind me, I’ll get back to I want to get people out of stage three. But if you’re me, like how do you know if you’re in stage three? I’ll tell you. Anyway, if you are willing, willingness is a huge word right here. If you are willing to let go of the small self-benefits, grieve, mourn the loss, bunch of things you need to do, you move to stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here’s where you acknowledge, I can’t undo what happened. But I control what I do with it. Just in that decision, you’re turning down the stress response, you’re not healing just yet. But at least you just stop the massive damage you’ve been creating in stages two and stage three. Stage four feels like if you’ve ever moved, if you’ve ever moved to a new house, office, condo, apartment, whatever, all your stuff’s not there. It’s not cozy yet. But you’re like, okay, okay, we’ve got this, stage four feels like that. But think about it, if you were to move, you don’t bring everything you know, you don’t take those things that don’t represent who you want to be when you’re in your new space. And what I found was, there’s this one spot in moving from stage three to stage four. If your friends weren’t there for you, you don’t take them with you. You’ve outgrown them. And it’s so common, people say to me all the time, I’ve had these friends 10, 20 years is it me? Yes, it is. You’re undergoing a transformation and if they don’t rise, you don’t bring them, very common.

Lesley Logan 22:30
That and that’s probably the hardest part. I’m sure in your work, you see people who have a hard time letting go of those friends. I’ve had them for so much of my life. And it’s like, if but if it’s true, if they’re not rising up with you, if they’re not, if they’re not willing to stop telling the story as well, if they’re not willing to stop being stuck. It’s not that you’re being a dick, not taking them with you. It’s like actually part of you becoming the person here. So you’ve always wanted to be. If you loved being in stage three you would stay there, but you’re not loving it.

Debi Silber 23:02
That’s it. And here’s the thing, do you know how often I’ll see somebody sabotaging their growth, because they don’t want to outgrow their betrayer or they don’t want to outgrow the friends they need in that stuck place. So they’ll find themselves constantly sabotaging their success, so that they stay with the familiar known, the only benefit is that it’s familiar. That’s the only thing. But because it’s familiar, they will you know, it’s not worth healing and rebuilding themselves because of the known familiar but what’s waiting for you in Stage Four and Stage Five is mind-blowing. So let me get to stage five, and then I’ll tell you what we see. So stage five, once you’ve settled into this new mental space, you’ve made it cozy, you’ve made it home, you move into the fifth most beautiful stage and this is healing, rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal. Self-love, self-care, eating well exercise, you just couldn’t do that before you you know, you don’t have the bandwidth. Your mind is healing, you’re making new rules, you’re making new boundaries, you know, based on the road you just traveled and you have a new worldview based on everything, you see so clearly and so differently now. And the four legs of the table in the beginning it was all about the physical and the mental by this point, were solidly grounded. Because we’re focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five.

Lesley Logan 24:24
Yeah, this is really cool. So because I, I feel like you know, the whole reason this podcast exists is that people think that they have to fake it till they make it and like I’m not about that because like I think that like acting as if you’re the person that you want to be allows you to make decisions like that person would. And so when I was, what I was attracted to this topic so much is that like, I see so many people with all the tools they have all of them they actually have the goals, they have the things and they keep self-sabotaging or staying stuck or playing small or replaying a story. Well, last time I tried to do something this happened to me, and so, I love that you found these five, and also all these things that like, I think so many people are walking around from betrayal symptoms, not just like, you know, like depression is a symptom of betrayal. It’s not that you know, so I feel like we’re going around trying to heal symptoms, and not actually the cause of the problem. Is that what your studies all found?

Debi Silber 25:21
It is 100%. Because think about it, like, for example, 45% of everybody betrayed has a gun issue, you could go to the best good doctor on the planet, I’m friends with many of them, right? But here’s the thing, that the amazing protocols they recommend will only take you so far, if there’s an unhealed betrayal at the root of it. Unless and until you heal that, that’s the issue. Or let’s say, you know, you’ve in the beginning you you couldn’t hold food down, and later on, you become an emotional eater, then you try to lose weight. Well, and you try all these weight loss things, that’s not the issue or you can’t sleep. So you start taking something for sleep, or your adrenals have tanked and you’re taking something like some sort of adrenal support, they’re all wonderful, right? But at the root of it is that unhealed betrayal. But when you move out of stage three into stage four, and five, what we see constantly within the PBT Institute, that’s where you are ready for a new level of relationship with someone entirely new or with a completely revamped person of the person who hurt you. That’s when we see new levels of health. That’s where if I tell you how many businesses get birthed in stages four and five, the PBT Institute, that was a stage five thing, you don’t have access to all of that newness when you’re stuck in your trauma. You get your story, but that’s really just about all you’re getting.

Lesley Logan 26:43
Yeah. Yeah. So hurt me wonders. Like, do you think there’s some people who have particularly like, locked the betrayal so much that they’re, they’re almost in denial that their problems are from betrayal like it? Some of these things might have happened when they were children? Some of these things happen when they’re adults. How do you go about like understanding what betrayal you need to heal from if you’re not aware? Like, I mean, people might think like Lesley, you’re crazy. No, like, if my partner had cheated on me, that’s a very obvious betrayal. But there might be some betrayals that like happened to you that were kind of can you’re conditioned to so you don’t even call it that you think it was your fault. So I guess I’m just wondering if, if there’s like some ways to figure out if betrayal is what you’re going through?

Debi Silber 27:27
100%. So take a look at your health, your work, your relationships will see it in these three areas all the time. For example, in your relationships, I’ll see an unhealed betrayal in one of two ways. The first is a repeat betrayal. The face has changed, but it’s the same thing. You keep going from boss to boss to boss, friend to friend to friend, partner to partner and partner, like what the heck is it me? Yes, it is, not in that it’s your fault. In that it’s your opportunity, there is a gigantic lesson waiting to be learned. You are lovable, worthy and deserving. You need better boundaries in place, whatever that lesson is, until and unless you get that you’re gonna have opportunities in the form of people to teach you. Like, for example, in my case, I had a painful betrayal from my family. And then I was like, all right, let me just heal from this. I think I’m over it, I’m good. And then my husband, but look at what I did here for me, I never did anything for myself, I wasn’t even on my own like to-do list, you know, for me to enroll in a Ph. D. program. I didn’t know who was gonna pay for it. I didn’t know how I was going to manage the time. If I tell you how many people said I was full-blown crazy, right? But in making such a radical decision for me, it completely changed my life. And just to close the loop on my story, so everybody knows. Healing and rebuilding is always a choice whether you rebuild yourself and move on and that’s what I did with my family wasn’t an option to rebuild with them. Or if the situation lends itself if you’re willing, if you want to you rebuild something from the ground up new as two entirely different people. That’s what I do with my husband. So not long ago as two totally different people, we married each other again.

Debi Silber 29:10
Oh my God.

Debi Silber 29:12
New house, new dress, and our four kids is our bridal party. Betrayal will show you who someone truly is. It also has the opportunity to wake them up to who they temporarily became not that you need to do anything with that. But yeah, what most people do though is they’re so afraid of the complete and utter death and destruction of the old as the only way you birth the new.

Lesley Logan 29:37
This is, I’m happy to hear that because it sounds like you both had to go through some things for that to actually come back and like refine each other in massive ways. And I’m sure it wasn’t easy. I I like that you break down to like, health, you know, that like relationships and I think the third one was work or was that family?

Debi Silber 29:58
Yeah, I’d love to show and explain how it shows up in different areas? So in relationships, it’s going to show up in one of those two ways, in repeat betrayal, that is an unhealed betrayal lesson has not been learned. The second way is the big wall goes up, like nope, been there done that no one’s getting near me again. And we think that’s coming from a place of strength. And it’s not, it’s coming from fear. Our heart was so hurt that we are unwilling to risk that level of vulnerability, because we just can’t fathom the thought of that level of pain again. So we would rather keep everyone at bay, than take the risk of that pain. That’s an ideal betrayal. We see it in health, people go to the most well-meaning, very good doctors, coaches, healers, therapists to manage a stress-related symptom illness, condition, disease, at the root of it, like we said before, is that unhealed betrayal. And we see it at work too, where let’s say you deserve that raise or promotion. But you don’t have the confidence to ask because your confidence was shattered in the betrayal. Or you want to be a team player. You want to be a collaborative partner, joint venture partner, but the person you trusted, the most proved untrustworthy. How do you trust that boss, that co-worker that partner, you see? It’s just everywhere, everywhere?

Lesley Logan 31:18
Yeah, I was just listening to a podcast the other day, and this girl had wrote in a question like, I want to ask for a raise. My raise last time was like 3%. And I really, I feel like I should be making 10 or 15,000 more than I’m making, I feel that people are, but I like had some mistakes in my past jobs. And all I was thinking is like, not at this job. You’ve been fine at this job. You can ask for the rate and they’re like telling her like, you should be looking at what they’re paying you way too little for this, you should be looking at these things. And all I could think is like, this poor person is carrying on some weight on their shoulder as if it’s like, I mean, the way she said it was as if she’d like killed someone her past job. And it was, I doubt it.

Debi Silber 31:57
Yeah. And you know, when you say that, and the first thing that comes to my mind is worthiness and confidence shattered. That’s a betrayal. I’m sure, I’m sure. I wish I could speak to her because I’m sure that’s what’s at the root.

Lesley Logan 32:09
Yeah, I feel like okay, you guys, you guys study all these people. But I feel like almost you don’t go through life without like, no one gets flipped through life being unscathed. I feel like betrayal can happen. So some of it so intentionally, I guess maybe it’s unintentional as well. Even the people who are cheating on their spouses, like (inaudible) they intentionally I’m betraying this person, but like, it feels so personal like we talked about the beginning, that I feel like it can happen in a lot of different instances just by being part of the world. So I guess I’m wondering, like, is there a way to prevent betrayal?

Debi Silber 32:42
You know, integrity? Yeah, here’s and that’s the thing. It’s, it’s such a part of our of our lives. And, you know, you wonder, it’s like, Why in the world, would this be such a part of our lives, I kind of look at it as it gives you an opportunity to completely catapult yourself to a level of you, you never even thought possible, you know what it’s like, it’s like, you know, my kids used to love Legos, right? So imagine there’s a Lego structure sitting in a corner of the living room, it’s that good. It’s just there. It’s been built, right? And then one day, it’s just completely knocked down. Rebuilding yourself, and transforming after betrayal is like looking at that Lego structure and say, you know what, I don’t want to use that piece, I don’t want to build it that way. I’m gonna use this, I’m gonna do it like that. And you are recreating everything. And betrayal lends itself to creating an entirely new version of you, where you take all the parts of you that you love, and you leave behind everything that no longer serves, like if the old you settled, if the old you tolerated, you know, stuff that this version of you doesn’t want to if the old you didn’t speak up for yourself, whatever it was, you have so many opportunities after betrayal, because everything’s been leveled to decide who it is you want to be. And this isn’t just having to do with another person. This is with yourself. Like, for example, after my betrayal, I realized, you know, I was so hard on myself, I was always such a, like, I was criticizing myself and so critical. And you know what? I don’t want to do that anymore. So I decided that after betrayal, I used to always do things that I would call so stupid and so dumb, like, I’d get lost wherever I go. It’s just part of what I do. They just get lost. And I decided, You know what, I’m just not going to call myself those names. So now when I do those same things, it’s simply adorable.

Lesley Logan 34:39
Yes, what a kind of way to talk to yourself.

Debi Silber 34:42
I’ll get lost just as I always do. And now I’m like, you’re just so adorable. You see what I mean? So it’s like you get to rebuild whatever you want. That’s the opportunity but you never access that stuff. When you’re stuck. Because you’re like I have my story. It’s like think about it. I had very powerful story all the people that I trusted all betrayed me. But look at the story now, you know, the books, the TEDx talks, the Institute, thousands of people, to the certified coaches, like, it’s a way better story.

Lesley Logan 35:12
Yeah. Okay, one more question. Um, now that you’ve gone through this, and like you’ve helped all these people who recover and get to stage five, do you find that people who’ve gone through stage five, if betrayal happens to them, again, they handle it? They don’t have to go through all the stages again, or like, do we have to go, we have to, like, we feel all the feelings.

Debi Silber 35:34
It’s two things. It’s number one, it doesn’t, it doesn’t happen that way, again, because your BS meter is so strong and so sharpened, that you don’t attract those types of people in your lives. If you do, there’s another lesson needing to be learned. But the good news is you have the tools to get right, you get through it so much more quickly. And like the emotional trajectory of this is like this, and you you breeze through it so much faster. It’s like, first, you are so profoundly sad. You’re like, oh, my gosh, how could they do this to me? You know, you’re heartbroken. And then it moves towards anger, where you like, how do you do that to me, like, what, and that’s actually healing. And then you get to this place of almost like pity, like, really, that’s like, that’s what you have to do. That’s actually a really, really great place. Because it’s almost as if you were in the picture. And now you’re out of the picture, looking at it, seeing it for what it is and realizing it’s not you. So that’s huge. And then you move, you keep going with the healing, you move towards compassion, when you’re in compassion, you’re good, that’s when you’re healed. That doesn’t mean you excuse it, you’re setting yourself up for it again, none of that, it just means you have completely healed and use the situation to create the most healed healthy, whole, complete version of you.

Lesley Logan 36:54
Oh, I love that I that. There’s something like very promising and hopeful about that because it, it means you don’t have to repeat all of the stuckness and the level three, and you can move through it faster. And I think like you are right, the opportunities are so key. Every person listen, I feel like some of the, you mentioned earlier, some of the best things that have ever been invented have come through people healing from something, you know, I just interviewed a guest who lost her husband to cancer. And she wrote because of how she noticed how people treated her during his cancer. And then after she read a book on like, here’s how you help people, and you’re going through something, and like, I feel like, you know, we can, it can be so easy. Why is this happening to me, but also not that you’d ever want, like, wish for bad things to happen to you. But my goodness, like, the things that do come from the shit are helping so many more people. And you get to have this incredible journey around you and learn from these lessons. And it doesn’t have to be your story.

Debi Silber 38:02
Right? Oh, you’re so right. And it’s so true. Think about it, you know, the most the best health experts. I know, they’ve been in the worst of health situations and they created their own concoction and healed from it. Someone who’s you know, so great at helping you with, let’s say finances, maybe they were broken, they came up with their whole recipe. So it’s I feel like we have an obligation if we’ve been through something and we’ve sort of created a path. How do you not share that like when the five stages showed up? I’m like, How do I keep this myself? You know, so I put the five stages in a program and it blew up and then everyone wants to work with me and lead. Well, how do I do that? So I created our certification program because I wanted to get these five stages out to everybody. And then that blew up and I was like, Wait a second. I did the research. I know what works. I know what doesn’t work. What would happen if I put everything that has proven to work under one roof. And that’s the PBT Institute.

Lesley Logan 38:55
So amazing. You’re doing incredible things. Oh my gosh, Debi, this is I feel like so enlightened. I feel like I’ve got tools. I hope our listeners do too. I could keep talking to you. We’ll have to definitely probably revisit this topic again with you soon. But we’re gonna take a brief break and find out people can work with you.

Lesley Logan 39:12
Now. Okay, where do you hang out? Where’s the best place people get your books, people can work with you if they’ve gone through betrayal?

Debi Silber 39:20
Yeah, everything can be found in the PBT as in Post Betrayal Transformation, the

Lesley Logan 39:26
Perfect. Okay, you’ve given us some amazing tools and just so much information that I think will help everybody be it till they see it even in the midst of a betrayal. But before I let you go, bold, executable, intrinsic, targeted steps people can take to be it till they see it. What do you have for us?

Debi Silber 39:42
You know, I would say if you’re stuck in stage three, these are four questions I invite you to write down that’s my way of saying write these down. Ready? First one, am I numbing, avoiding distracting? If so hell call yourself on it? Do you walk into the refrigerator, the kitchen, open the fridge and not the least bit hungry like what’s going on? Do you go into a room put a TV on because you’re desperately trying to drown out the sound of your own thoughts? Call yourself on it. Number two, what am I trying not to see? Call yourself on it. Am I trying not to see that health issue that needs my attention? That relationship issue? The job I hate? Third question, what’s life that will look like in five to 10 years if I keep this going the same way you’re dealing with it or not dealing with it, play it out. How does it look? The fourth question, what can life look like in five to 10 years if I change now? Not saying it’s easy. Transformation begins when you tell yourself the truth.

Lesley Logan 39:46
Yeah, and also like you can’t, you can’t be it till you see it if you don’t have some ideas of where you want to like where you want to go to some sort of dream of something that can be on the other side of amazing. I invite you guys to write those questions down and go through it myself. A.k.a., do it. Oh, my gosh, Debi, thank you so much for being here. Y’all, how are you going to use these tips in your life? Please make sure you share this episode with a friend who you know who is going through some betrayal. You know, that person is that person stuck in stage three that you’re like, oh my gosh, I wish I could just pull them out. Just send them this episode. You know, you don’t have to tell them why you could just send it to them. And please tag Dr. Debi Silber, the Be It Pod and let us know what your takeaways are. We love hearing what these are because it does allow us to see the impact that we’re making in your life. And until next time, Be It Till You See It.

Lesley Logan
That’s all I’ve got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over on IG at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us help others to BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!

Lesley Logan
‘Be It Till You See It’ is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @be_it_pod.

Brad Crowell
It’s written, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.

Lesley Logan
It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at

Brad Crowell
Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music and our branding by designer and artist Gianfranco Cioffi.

Lesley Logan
Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.

Brad Crowell
Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.

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