Fatherhood and

Navigating Your Career

Ep. 223 with Jay Twinning

“You can learn from other people’s experience.”

Jay Twining

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A game designer for 10 years but something was missing. Jay is striving to be a devoted father, chasing his career in branding, and opening the conversation about fatherhood on his podcast Feel Good Fatherhood.
Show Notes

An honest conversation about the journey through fatherhood, balancing a career, and navigating the emotions that come up throughout the process.

If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at [email protected]. Or leave a comment below!

And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.

In this episode you will learn about:

  • The history of Feel Good Fatherhood.
  • Navigating the new career of being a parent.
  • The process of going back to zero.
  • Why Feel Good Fatherhood exists.
  • The value of men recognizing what is happening on the inside and communicating it.

Episode References/Links:



Lesley Logan
Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I’m Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I’ve trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it’s the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It’s a practice, not a perfect. Let’s get started.


Lesley Logan
Hey, hey, hey, all right, I have an amazing episode for you. This is definitely umm, it’s, it’s, I’m just so excited. First of all, we have a surprise guest and a surprise. So we have the guest, who’s Jay Twining, and I’m so excited. He is one of our strategists that helps us work on our business. So we know him very well. We know how he is when it comes to like working on your business, growing, noodling, and getting deep dive in there. And what I loved is learning so much about him and how he got to where he is. I hope that what you discover as you’re learning from this is that we all have a journey. And too often because of perfectionism, overachiever ism, we discount ourselves from being qualified to do certain things. And because Jay did not, as you’ll hear in the story, he actually put himself in spaces that really helped get him to exactly where he is today. And then also led him to the ability to do something that he dreamed about many, many, many years ago. So dreams take time. And this interview has a really lovely storyline for you to see not only yourself and the journey, but also for those of you who have men in your lives or a male listener to this. I think you’ll really enjoy what he’s working on right now. Have an amazing time listening to Jay Twinning.

Hello Be It babes, okay. I’m so excited. We actually have a wonderful, amazing guest here and also Brad here, who the wonderful, amazing guest is and he changed his plans, y’all. He was gonna go for an afternoon walk. I’m just, I’m pretty sure… (Brad: I’m here today), I’m pretty sure that was (…). And he was gonna take from someone else.

Brad Crowell 0:25
It was Dai Manuel (Lelsley: yeah), I was gonna do my 30.

Lesley Logan 0:28
Yeah. And he’s doing the self development part first. Lesson’s called that… (Brad: that’s what we’re doing). So the reason why Brad is here is because we’ve an amazing man, who we’ve come to know for more than a year now, maybe longer. His name is Jay Twining. And he is actually, we go, he’s really close to us, because he works with us on our business every single month. So, Jay, will you tell everyone who you are and what you’re rockin out right now?

Jay Twining 0:51
Absolutely. So, I am a resident brand strategist for Brand Builders Group. And so I get to, I have the pleasure, I have the privilege of working with folks just like these two building their brand. But also, what I do is I have a well, I do Feel Good Fatherhood. And so that’s a show. And I just like working with dads and having conversations about what they’re about. And that really, really kind of lights me up.

Lesley Logan 1:15
So I love this because I think a lot of people don’t end up with a coach who’s also a client of some kind, like actually doing the thing that they coach on. And so I actually really appreciate it because you, with Feel Good Fatherhood, you’re coming at everything that we’re doing from the same place like you know how much time and energy an episode like this takes, like, I think our listeners might be like, Oh, this is like a 30 minute episode or however long it is. And let me just tell you the amount of hours pre and after to get it is not 30 isn’t even double 30 minutes. So what made you want to get started with Feel Good Fatherhood? I guess we can almost start there because that’s kind of like why you’d be even interested in coaching people on this on on the journey you’re going.

Brad Crowell 1:55
Yeah, which came first here, chicken or the egg?

Jay Twining 1:58
Got it. We’ll do Feel Good Father first. So this is this is great.

Brad Crowell 2:00
I mean, did you start Feel Good Fatherhood prior to becoming a BBG Coach?

Jay Twining 2:06
Oh, no, this was afterwards… (Brad: Okay). However, the, I would say the genesis of the idea was long time ago. And so when I was making games, so I was a game designer for about 10 years. Living the life I was in actually is in San Diego, in, you guys, neck of the woods. And I went to, I think the first thing we got to do was like preface, what it’s like any industry and so lots of hours, overtime crunch is kind of common knowledge. Not that different from being a business owner. ot that different from being a say in Hollywood, something like that. So lots of hours is the normal cadence. So I woke up one day, and it was a normal day, I left for work at a normal time, and my daughter wasn’t awake. And then I went for my standard eight hours eight and a bit. And I came home a regular day came home at a regular time. And she was asleep by time I came home. And the thing I did was I walked upstairs, I woke her up to sing her lullaby. And while I was sitting there doing this, when I came back down, I had this inner turmoil. So I just had this moment where the things that I’m doing in my life, the way that I’ve set up my day to day, they aren’t really aligned with number one who I learned later on who I am, like my new identity, but also with what I’m doing. And so while I was doing my dream work, and while I was really activated and fulfilled, and while I loved everything I was doing creating games, and providing entertainment for people all over the world. It wasn’t filling my cup anymore.

Brad Crowell 3:41
And presumably that was because of your daughter.

Jay Twining 3:43
Yes, because of my daughter, and my wife and my family and…

Lesley Logan 3:49
Listening to guys, let’s make sure that the wife (…)

Brad Crowell 3:50
100% percent.

Jay Twining 3:53
And it took me a while like I kind of had the niggling sense. Like I had the sense somewhere in my body, like it was showing up in my body and lots of things were going on. It took me about four years to figure out, it’s time for me to leave. It’s time for me to pursue something new. All this kind of happened, that’s sort of the preface that’s the scene. What was really happening was that my daughter was born about three weeks after a major studio that I was working at closed and it was very public. Incredibly stressful. It was 38 Studios. So for the listeners if they want to go down the rabbit hole of public business and private business, it’s it’s pretty crazy what happened. And we went through that and so full company closure, no no health insurance, no nothing, baby born in Providence, Rhode Island, tons of stress. Within a month got had the next position moved across the country. So uprooted from all my support group, uprooted from all my mentors, uprooted from all my friends, like everything. My, my parents were living abroad in Singapore. So they were 12 hours off. So I had, I didn’t have that support network anymore. And then, and then the, and then her parents were on the other side of the country. So it was like a six to eight hour, it was a full day trip just to come visit us. Yeah. So you can imagine, like, at this time and a family, you need local support.

Lesley Logan 5:20
Yeah. Well, I also just want to observation I had, because first of all, you’re like, it took four years. And I think some people are like, wow, it took four years, if you had this moment, like four years is actually a short amount of time when it comes to like, transforming the life that you want to, like, go from like, this career to like, how do I actually change that. And also, it makes so much sense because if you like, lost everything in a moment that like, felt like so much certainty. You’re so new in this job, with a new child and everything, like the last thing you want to do is go let me just like fly by the seat of my pants. It’s a moment. So I think it actually makes more sense. Why it took four years.

Brad Crowell 5:57
Yeah, I think that’s what that’s kind of the experience I had too because for easily two years, you know, you and I would like I need to get out of my job. I need to get out of my job. How am I gonna get out my job? What would, what am I going to do? What could I do instead? Right? And then after, like, finally leaving, I had another two years of like, still trying to figure out how am I going to build my business? How am I going to make money? How am I gonna do this? Until we settled on what today might look like. So yeah, that seems far for the course.

Jay Twining 6:30
Awesome. And all very true. And so when we so then we have all this stuff going on. And then finally in the last, here’s the last straw. The same year my daughter was born, in May, my biological father died in December.

Lesley Logan 6:46
Oh, geez. So like, so now we just layered it.

Jay Twining 6:50
So everything’s like happening. Oh, and by the end, and then on top of it, in November, because we were estranged. And this is the real this is kind of the real genesis of Feel Good Fatherhood we were estranged 15 years, no relationship with my biological father, my sister and I were looking for him, like public records, everything just like where are you? Do you? Are you alive? like standard questions like that. And so all this kind of stuff is happening on and then a couple years later, when things finally slow down and stuff, like it just kind of hits me I was like, I never wanted to be a father to my kids, like my biological father was to me. Oh, and that, and that story of the estranged parent, you know, like, I love data. So two out of five kids in the United States are in fatherless households, 40%, there’s a reasonable odds that every person that you meet grew up grew up in a fatherless households, that’s a reasonable number 40%, that’s almost the majority. So when I when I kind of combined all these different pieces of data, the way that I kind of find success in my life, is that I kind of do two or three core things, right, I kind of like to talk and engage in a community to kind of figure out what’s going on, that was gone. I like to find people that are ahead of me on the journey or walking with me on the journey, and hanging out there. And that didn’t really exist. There were no new fathers around me. It was completely outside of that, that group. And then the other one, in the other place where I leaned a lot on is family. And that was, that was out. Right? So because I mean, they were a phone call away. But it’s it’s kind of different in the face to face interaction being in it is different than that kind of interaction. And so now we’re, so now that we understand the history, Feel Good Fatherhood exists, because there were two things were going through my mind. Number one, I don’t think my experience is that weird for new dads. I think it’s very common. And I think it’s very common today. And I think more fathers today go through what I went through than not… (Lesley: right). And number two, I think that sucks. I think that’s the worst state. And I think that, in general, not only for fathers, but for parents, the whole scope, that we don’t do a really good job of, of a society of gathering around people that are intricately valuable in the world. Like being good parents just being present, just being a present parent, like not even the qualifier to being a good parent, because that in and of itself is a journey. Just being in the room. And raising is is that’s already hard. You’ve added another career on top of everything else you’re doing.

Lesley Logan 9:38
Yeah, I think we most of our listeners are, I would say are a parent in some stage of that. And it is, first of all the pressure on parents to like, it’s like they’re like, here’s your child and all the pressure in the world, on your shoulders now. And if you didn’t have and I would say you If you said 40% are fatherless homes, then I would say all those moms that they were those 40% they had moms who were like overworked, underpaid, and like, under like prioritize in their life. So so many people don’t have an example role model of anything that shows that like, this can also be something that I love. It could be something that could be that could feel good to go with your title also, like it’s possible. And if you but if you don’t have a support system, which if you don’t have a parent around, that’s if you’re down one, so Oh, that’s a lot that’s…

Brad Crowell 10:34
Also… (Lesley: articulate) well, also I think there was you kind of slipped it in there. But you said, this new career of being a parent, you know, it is easily as comparable or even more so than a career move, like a job move. Yeah.

Jay Twining 10:51
Yes, and I think and when I, when I think about and I explain it that way, I think about any sort of hard skill that you need, like, we’re all kind of business owners here, right? So there are probably off the top of our heads, probably 25 different things that you need to basically master to have a successful business. It’s the same number for raising kids, like, so you’re so on top of everything else is going on, we’re just we’re just trying to figure out, let alone the physical care of have a new have a new baby, you’re learning new interaction styles with your spouse, they have all the same fatigue and frustration you do. So like when you think about the powder keg of the house, it’s like it’s so easy. And this is why you know…

Brad Crowell 11:41
For those that are watching YouTube, that was the mind blown emotion.

Lesley Logan 11:44
Yes, but also my brain went like if these walls could talk, it’s almost like there needs to be a show about house walls. It’s like, oh, oh, this this and we are going going back now they have a kid. So here, watch this. Watch this. Go. Let’s see how this goes.

Jay Twining 12:00
I had this funny way back in the you know, Adult Swim the cartoon. I had this weird idea when I was a kid of having a cartoon of a bunch of wheels. Talking about the conversations happening in the car… (Lesley: Yes. Yeah). There they go again. Oh, Jerry’s lost again. Not asking for help. Here we go. Oh, Margaret’s doing that, like just this crazy stuff. And that would be really hilarious. So…

Lesley Logan 12:27
Oh, my gosh. Also, like further. It could be based in LA it’s like the same cars on the same freeway. The same wheels are seeing each other. Oh, gosh. You (…)

Jay Twining 12:35
How you doing? How you doing? Oh, yup, I saw you yesterday. It’s good. All right, let’s let’s move 10 feet. Okay!

Lesley Logan 12:42
I digress. Um, so. So Jay, it took you four years to like, go from this inner turmoil to like making a shift. Was the shift like, did you go part time? Did you just like leap and the net will appear? Like, what was the next? What was that next step that you could take after you had this feeling?

Jay Twining 12:59
Let’s just let’s just kind of layer on stuff. So at this time, I was still trying to make the career work. And when I actually made the decision, I was living and working in Cambridge, Massachusetts, while my family was in Albany, New York. And so Friday night, I would leave work, jump on the, jump on the freeway drive back three, three hours, pull in at 10 o’clock. My young, four year old daughter would be awake at 10 on a Friday night, which is fine. So, So we’d have….

Lesley Logan 13:28
What are rules? What is a bedtime anyway?

Jay Twining 13:30
Exactly. So so we were just cramming in, like two days, because roughly right around Sunday, like I’d be driving back ballin, like there were so many times I drove back along the freeway just crying because I’m like, What the hell am I doing with my life? And so all this stuff happened. And the real pivotal moment for me was when I finally decided that it was time to really make the switch, because all this had been brewing to this point was I misunderstood, I was having a discussion with my wife about coming and checking things out in Boston for moving there. And then she said, she said, I don’t even remember what she said. But what I heard was, I’m not moving to come to you, like in a in like a separation style. And so I had a mental break at work. I like, I stopped moving for about 30 minutes, because I couldn’t process what was happening. And then like a bunch of my co workers came to me and they were like, are you okay? Do you need to go home, like what’s going on? So I came out of it. And I was like, and I, you know, because I was relatively young was younger than I am now. And I kind of worked for a bit but then I went home and just kind of processed everything and I was like this, isn’t it, like this isn’t working. This is ended and what was happening was not going to be different from what my life would look like. If I stayed in that career, if I stayed making games… (Lesley: Hmm). So, so this happened and then, you know, six to nine months later there was downsizing. So I was out of work anyways. But by that time happened, I was actively looking for the next position I was actively…

Brad Crowell 15:11
Also, I feel like mentally, you must have been, you know, not necessarily welcoming it, but but ready to be making that change. And… (Jay: yeah) when, you know, when that happened at the job, it was like, kind of in lockstep with you.

Jay Twining 15:26
So it was it was kind of weird. I remember my boss, when we had the conversation, he was like, Oh, you’re handling this very well. You’re just being like, like yeah…

Brad Crowell 15:36
Like, (…) out the door most of the year.

Lesley Logan 15:38
Yeah (…) Oh, so when I was asked to quit, I was like, oh, do you want me to do so today? would today be a good day? Like, because we don’t want to fire you. And I’m like, eell, you fire me and I’d be over today. So do you want me to quit today? Like, do you want a two weeks notice? They’re like, are you okay? I’m like, um, I guess I’ve been planning this for a while.

Jay Twining 15:57
So like, the only thing I can say to those to those guys, is that it wasn’t you and I wasn’t at my best. And so if there’s anything going on there. So and then it started a whole bunch of years of just not making a lot of money. Trying to hit it because I had you know, I was at you know, I was a solid 10 years in great salary, great career being actively recruited by like Microsoft, and places over in San Francisco, like, just constantly having these discussions about going to these different places and these bigger studios and me just having to say, nope, I’m retiring this part of my life. So all this kind of stuff happened. And I had been thinking about being a game developer. So I was like, I ended up being a game designer, game system designer is my specialty, since I was like, eight. So when all this happened, and then when we when we really take a look at it, my entire identity, like was completely wrapped up in this career. I had almost nothing to back up on or fall back on… (Lesley: Yeah). And so and when we take the moving from place to place and upgrading social support, it was like I didn’t, like, I had nothing.

Brad Crowell 17:09
You didn’t feel like I had a community either… (Jay: I had nothing) (Lesley: I guess)… (Jay: It was crazy).

Lesley Logan 17:13
Yeah. We’re how old it just so I’m perspective time, like how old is their daughter when this happened?

Jay Twining 17:21
So we left? I started working at the Cambridge place when she was four, it would have been around six. She was six when this was all happening. And so she’s turning 11. Now, so this would been four or five years ago… (Lelsley: Wow. Yeah). So basically, she was six, I spent about a year and a half, a year, just figuring stuff out, I had to, I’d have developed a whole new set of skills. And for everybody that’s out there that the number one skill you need when you’re starting a business or trying something new is sales, and I had no sales experience.

Brad Crowell 17:56
So did you work at a restaurant?

Jay Twining 17:59
Well, I was a busboy at a restaurant, so I was kind of doing that stuff. But I didn’t have any that experience. And so I had I deep dived into sales, I worked at a I was an internal salesperson for a direct sales company selling multi $1,000 products. And that was a really steep uphill climb and started to get that thing going.

Lesley Logan 18:20
Way to like throw yourself in, like, let’s just dive into the hardest thing.

Brad Crowell 18:23
I literally would have just gone into food and been a server. Yeah. That doesn’t take quite as much as being assistant salesperson.

Jay Twining 18:32
Something that I really had to get over. And I still get over a lot. It’s just I had a really, I still kind of do like, kind of arrogant sometimes, like in my in here in my head. I have a big ego. And at that time of my life, I was like, Well, I’m used to this kind of lifestyle. So when I come in, I gotta make this big projects… (Brad: Yeah) you know, game designers we have a chip right here on the shoulder.

Lesley Logan 18:58
Yes, I’ve been to several game designer, Christmas parties, actually. So yes.

Jay Twining 19:05
Very confident and very self assured. We’ve got the plan, we have the vision and our whole, like a huge part of our job is enrolling everybody in what we’re doing and getting the vision going. And so it was really hard to start back at zero. Yeah, so so it kind of took time and the one good thing that I had going for me is that I guess I still have this I don’t have a if I was internally saying this, it’s I have a low sense of self awareness in that I don’t always when I see something I’m like sure I’ll just go try that. Like why not? And so there was this open sales position for, it’s kind of embarrassing when I say it now, but I opened sales position for a Sotheby’s real estate agent. I didn’t need I didn’t know what Sotheby’s was.

Lesley Logan 19:56
Oh yeah, there’s zero imposter, you have none. You’re like I can do that… (Jay: And I did)

Brad Crowell 20:01
I might as well be a salesperson for them.

Lesley Logan 20:04
Exactly. Listening, you know what you should try that try.

Brad Crowell 20:08
If you don’t know, Sotheby’s is like the biggest in the world, and that’s probably a very, very competitive role.

Jay Twining 20:15
Luxury. So it’s luxury second homes. Average listing price is 750 plus. The people that have these these kinds of homes, like, this is their second, third and fourth home… (Brad: Right). So the average clientele, their multi millionaires if not billionaires, and they, they have homes and places we like to travel to hotels to vacation.

Lesley Logan 20:38
Yeah. Yeah. (…) I’ve been there… (Brad: Let’s do it) (..) Did you get the job?

Jay Twining 20:47
Well, I got I got an interview. And, and, and we talked about maybe doing the work, but where it ended up, so but my skill set at that point was actually an information businesses, so information products, courses, memberships, and online sales. And so instead of, he didn’t really bring me in for the real estate agent, he was like, Would you be interested in helping me build this business was sure. (Lesley: that’s so cool) And, uh, sure. And so we worked together for a while, and it was, it was a wild ride. And we we actually built everything and had some great success with it. And then, and then that led me to what I’m currently doing, which is BBG… (Lesley: So that is so crazy, right?)

Brad Crowell 21:31
I love that the interview had nothing to do with the job.

Lesley Logan 21:34
But also, like, I think, I think, what I, I’m loving this, and I know what our listeners would be doing, they would never have applied for that job. They would never have and I’m not saying go out and apply for jobs, you know, isn’t doing but like, they I actually think a lot of like, someone listeners to this might not even apply for the job that they’re qualified for. Because they’ll talk themselves out of it. And so it’s like a perfectionism. So yeah, like, we could just like all gleam not not too much just enough to like, actually go for the thing that we are able to do that we think, Oh, I’m not ready. If you’ve ever said I’m not ready for that yet. When that when I do this, then I’ll be ready. And it’s like, if you’re waiting for someone to deem you ready to apply for a job or take the next step. No one’s doing that. No one is coming around and randomly going, and now you should go for that interview. Like now you’re ready, you know, and if they are, I would like you to look around, you may be in a cult. I’m kidding. I’m kidding. Maybe not that serious, but something close. So. So that allows you to take all your expertise, and like really help all these people who are putting courses together, they’re going on speaking, they’re doing these things. And then it sounds like it gave you the time to actually sit back and build your thing from the ground up.

Jay Twining 22:51
I think the one the number one best thing about this direct sales company that I was working for, and being a salesperson is the sheer amount of personal development that was emphasized. There. There were like if you’re not reading and not currently working on you, your mindset, the way you speak on some sort of skill, soft skill, hard skill. Like you don’t belong here. That was a language, it’s like you just don’t belong here. And so I would, I would read Robert Kiyosaki, Rich Dad Poor Dad, Cashflow Quadrant, so I was reading Harv Eker secrets, The Millionaire Mind, I was reading like I was reading constantly sales, personal development, sales, personal development. Yeah, just constant like constant courses, constant webinars, always personal development grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, learn as much as you can. And it led to some, like I met some crazy people, like I met a dude. He had a business and his goal was to own real estate in every single state. He was at 20 states. By the time I spoke to him, and like by time I stopped speaking to him, he was at 25. Like he just and that was within a couple of months, like you just hungry and going after it. And it really kind of let me know that the limit of what I could accomplish was based on the amount of work I was going to put in. And so while yes, I didn’t have any impostor syndrome, I didn’t have any internal self awareness about qualifying for a position. I knew I could work to make it happen. And so there was never in my mind a there has never been a mind. Oh, I don’t have that line item. So I’m gonna go do this other thing. Because so I was in video games for 10 years. When I got that position. I was a data analyst. I went to school for French language. So I learned I know a little bit about French culture, France, French art, like fine art in France. And I took computer science as a minor, because I had always kind of been making games in my off time, and that was one of the big pushes. But getting into the industry. Was it this is a common joke about job openings, right? So they’ll list a bunch of like skills that you have and say, like 10 years required for an entry level position. Right? So an entry level position for a thing requires 10 years of experience in a bunch of doohickeys. And it’s like, it’s absurd. And I remember I looked at this entry level position at Vicarious Visions. And it’s really funny. I’ll continue this one later on. But so I went there, and I was like, oh, requires like one to three years of game development experience. And then, but when I looked at all the rest of it, I was like, I have all the rest. And I sent a resume to it on a lark, because it was a studio I hadn’t really heard of. And it was in a place. I was like, Albany, New York. Where’s that? So I had no no frame, you know, because I was young and didn’t really have a lot of experience in it. But when I had the phone screen, so I was in between. So this is crazy. I was shooting a safety video, a bilingual safety video, English, French, for the company I was working for. So I was on set in front of the camera doing doing this work. The hiring manager called me. And I said, Look, I’m back on set in like 25 minutes. And he’s like what? I said, I said, I didn’t really know you were going to call, I appreciate it. But I’ve got about 20 minutes, what can we talk about? And so in that conversation, I said, yes, I had worked in building my own games, I had been playfully, playfully coding since I was about my daughter’s age. So about eight. My first language was basic, and I made a little text adventure. And so I had been kind of doing this work. And then by the time I got there…

Lesley Logan 26:44
You actually overqualified for the job really, is what we’re finding out.

Jay Twining 26:47
Okay, that’s a little bit of that.

Lesley Logan 26:50
I’m so sorry. But I just, I just have to interrupt because it’s like, what you’re what I’m hearing you say is like, we’re people are like, going to have to have they have this, I have to have these things. And you brought up like 10 years of this for entry level job. It’s like, well, how do you get the entry? How do you get the 10 years experience before, so I love that you’re like, I have all the rest of this stuff. So I’m gonna go for it. Because I think people, the perfectionist be like, Oh, I don’t have those gotta go take another training and come back later miss out on the opportunity to really like show well, I have these other experiences that would help with this job.

Jay Twining 27:25
If, if I was thinking about life as a video game, most video games have sort of some sort of technology limit to a level or a skill. So you have a skill in jumping, and the jumping is like nine out of 100. But that’s an artificial limit for the context of the game. In real life, there’s no upper limit to a skill.

Brad Crowell 27:47
I think… (Lesley: That is amazing) to take that and so I, I had a really hard time understanding what I could do for whom were outside of my music skills. So I totally understand what you mean, you’re like, on set, but you applied to a gaming company. And, and it’s like, you know, I never even saw myself, like, the benefit that I could add to any company, any company, it actually did not matter if they were doing, you know, skin, hair care or alcohol. And like, literally, that’s how I was able to take my operational mind and make it benefit either of those two companies that I did end up working for, but never what I’ve actually been like, I should go work at an alcohol company, right? You know, I have no context to understand how my skills could be beneficial.

Jay Twining 28:45
If you’re in the world of the W two, you know, the reason why I brought up that sales competency when you’re doing something new, is because most the time you have to articulate why these people can make use of your skills. It I always find it the funniest thing ever, because this video game background has cost me clients, you know, in this personal branding world, because they’re kind of like, oh, you made games, you must not take anything seriously. And I’m like…

Brad Crowell 29:11
Oh, that’s so funny.

Lesley Logan 29:12
Why don’t we well, you know what, that’s a judgmental person. Goodbye. Not my ICA.

Jay Twining 29:19
And it’s it’s okay. Right? Like, that’s it? It’s no, I really believe people are they’re gonna they’re doing the best they can with the information that they have and who they are to this point. And yeah, I think you know, some some people. I’ll just, I’ll just hit this point. Let’s just talk about gaming for a minute. 60% of the US population plays games.

Lesley Logan 29:37
I play a game, least an hour a day, probably two.

Jay Twining 29:40
If asking somebody if they play a game, or if they’re a gamer is equivalent to asking somebody if they watch movies.

Brad Crowell 29:46
Right. Yeah.

Jay Twining 29:48
It’s ubiquitous, like gaming is here to stay and it’s a part of our life. You may or may not choose to do something with it, but everybody plays. And you know, I think that when we really thinking about what would be the core competencies, competencies of like, why I’ve been able to do the things that I’ve been doing is because something that human beings are innately good at, is discovery and learning. We are learning machines, we learn, like the models of the womb, we learn everything, everything you do everything you experience, you reflect, you think on. And you can either apply that knowledge or not that’s doing this, like wisdom versus experience. Right? So, wisdom being you can learn from other people’s experience experience being you have to personally do it. And hopefully, in your life, you don’t have to go through the hard path every single time. Hopefully, at some point, you can learn from other people’s experience. And that sales vision and all that personal development was when I really started to unlock that, because to that point, before that position, I had been trying to do so much on my own, and figuring everything out the hard way.

Brad Crowell 30:58
Yeah, yeah. That’s like, and also I feel like, I bet that’s when, personally a chip that was on your shoulder, you are starting to let that go. Because that, gotta figure it out myself hard way. That’s a lot of ego. Right? And we ended up trapping ourselves in I gotta do it the hard way. Because we’re not open… (Lesley: Yeah. Yeah) to other people’s wisdom.

Jay Twining 31:27
It’s so there was certainly that it’s, we call it the in the industry, we call the not invented here syndrome… (Brad: not invented here) not invented here. Like let’s reinvent the wheel, maybe. Or we can save time by learning from something else or some other system or getting the research. But so then again, like, so I was having these lessons. And then so fatherhood, right I was like, Oh, well why can I learn from other fathers? And so right around also all this time so like I’m figuring out career stuff. And what I’m just kind of noticing as well like as I’m reading and finding things is that there aren’t really many places for fathers because at that time so four or five years ago we started to see the boss mama and the you know the crush it I think the big thing was like the helicopter parent, there was a supermom on the cover of Time. Yep, there was all this other kind of stuff.

Lesley Logan 32:23
Now there’s like all those are parents but none of these are any parent anybody actually wants to be like nobody. Can you imagine like actually being supermom, like, that sounds like a lot of work sounds like a lot of running and speeding and changing of clothes, and handling and controlling everything as opposed to like, because like a superhero is alone. It’s not like the Avengers moms, you know. So anyways, I’m just this is what I’m thinking about. And then the helicopter parents, it’s exhausting.

Jay Twining 32:51
One of my you said something that I think is really important and critical to why Feel Good Fatherhood exists. It’s that I learned from a game developer that I really, really loved. And when he was talking about and working on Star Wars, The Old Republic, it’s one of the only star wars of the most it’s out there. And he said, it’s totally fine for you to be alone. We love Batman’s. We love the lone people. It’s not okay for you to feel lonely. So Feel Good Fatherhood exists, because it’s totally fine for you, as a parent or a father to be alone. It is not okay for you to be lonely. So those conversations part of it is and I really believe this today about leaving leading from the front. And so I don’t have I don’t have that self awareness or anything like that going on. So I’m like, let’s just talk about fatherhood. Like, I don’t, you know, I try it. I don’t have this whole like, there’s sometimes I have like star power where like, oh, like, I really want to do something good. I want to have a really great interview with a person. But most the time, if we’re all fathers, like that’s something that bring it bridges the gap for us. That’s something that pull like it pulls us together, we have a shared common experience. And what I think is missing in our modern context, not just for fathers, but for everybody is that we don’t lean on each other enough. And the other way to say that is that we’re not open to be leaned on by other people enough. So I want to have the feelgood fatherhood conversation to show other fathers, they can have conversations about fatherhood. I want to have this conversation so that people that are interested in fathers and fatherhood can listen to see what other fathers are talking about and what their pressures are and what they’re doing. And finally, I really just want to provide I try and keep my personality the same and the questions the same because if all you’ve got in your life is a capability of asking five different questions, with the right five questions, you can build a relationship with anybody, why not?

Lesley Logan 35:02
So you’re, you’re making me think of our recent guests we had, the fitness guys. He also brought in Star Wars as an example. So we’ll have to connect you guys. For sure they were they’re very similar. It’s like, when you when, like it makes me think of like, for moms, we have done so much to support that we need to do more. So please don’t throw anything at me ladies I get we got to do more. But a lot of there’s a lot of like text chains groups, like a mom can literally like text 500 people and go What’s this? And get but like, either it either I’m not aware of it, because it’s not in my world. And none of my friends are fathers, I’m friends with the moms or it’s just really not something that is actually been created where it’s like, I have not, I don’t we saw our friends who just had a kid. Did we ask Chris how he’s doing? No, I think we were like, Laura, how are you doing? Do you have help? Like, I don’t think, we were worried about Chris? I hope you’re good. They think that thing is that this is a very needed.

Brad Crowell 36:03
Yeah. It’s like a societal assumption.

Jay Twining 36:05
It’s there. It’s so funny, because the pressures on men today are what are some of the pressures, the stoic man is not appreciated? So the and what is the stoic man mean? And where do we see that we see the stoic man and TV shows or movies, these are our heroes. So these are the people that accept the wall. These are the men that accept what’s happening, and just keep going. That’s, that’s the hero idea. Like, oh, that kind of happened. All right, let’s missions ahead, keep going. Right? And we see this a lot in our context of like military movies, you know, like Black Hawk Down is, I don’t know, I think I have some context around why I like some of these military movies mostly just reminds me of how grateful I am that I wasn’t a soldier, and that I live in a very safe world. It reminds me of that context, but from the stoic man, like that idea is kind of being diminished in the role of Hollywood, and maybe that’s kind of changed, especially since if we think about the Marvel context. You know, Tony Stark, right, Tony Stark, Captain America have this, like, look, we just got to pursue the thing, like, we’re gonna go solve the problem and pursue the thing. And, and that’s kind of being made fun of. But what’s really crazy about this, in the cultural context is that ladies, if you’ll allow me this, tell me, you wanted your man to freak out every time something happened. Tell me the last time you wanted your man to freak out when something happens, to have an over exuberance of emotion when things happen constantly, that emotional self control is something that is attractive in us and something that’s expected of us as men, and fathers in particular. So and that doesn’t mean 100%. And it’s not saying turn off the emotion. In fact, part of Feel Good Fatherhood is really being in touch with what’s happening on the inside, knowing that you have an emotion and knowing how to handle that. But the other side as well is kind of knowing and learning in a social context. When is it appropriate for me to face and open up and share my problem, my vulnerability? And then when is it not appropriate? Let’s suppose it you’re on the side of the road, right? And your tires are blown out. Like, who’s going to pull over if the dude is in a, an angry fit? Right? Like, let’s suppose he’s in an angry fit, because he’s mad because the tires blew up. Nobody’s gonna pull over.

Brad Crowell 38:50
And he’s like kicking the side of the tires… (Jay: kicking the side of tires) like bam bam!

Jay Twining 38:55
That craziness. Even then the cops the cops that show up the police officers that show up that are trying to help they’re gonna be like, dude, calm down. Right, then he’s gonna end up becoming a threat… (Brad: Yeah) so in the in the conversation of our lives, and why am I why am I focusing on anger? Because anger for men is a fuel source, and it is one of our default emotions. It’s one of our few accepted emotions, okay? Go we are on a crazy track. But what’s really important is that for men that we understand how to how to communicate what’s going on inside, and that we’re also in tune with what’s happening inside. So none of none of please take nothing of what I said as the emotions don’t happen. I have crazy emotions constantly in my life. Like it just it just kind of happens. But it’s not always appropriate for me to express them super exuberantly. Like number one, I’m not an actor, so I don’t get paid to do that. There’s that piece but number two, it’s not always meaningful. Like it’s not always it’s not always going to meaningfully add to the situation and it’s not expected subconsciously of me. And then finally…

Brad Crowell 40:01
I’m pretty sure that my computer fixes itself every time I yell at it. So, you know, I don’t actually know what you’re talking about.

Lesley Logan 40:08
This is why we have separate offices, everyone, there’s a reason.

Brad Crowell 40:13
It just magically works.

Jay Twining 40:14
The other side of it too comes from in a lot of so in video games, I was in kind of a male dominated world. And there’s a certain context where it’s allowed and not that doesn’t translate everywhere. So, Simon Sinek, loves telling the story about how he was on I think he was in Afghanistan, he was on base. And he was really surprised that the soldiers were allowed and given space when they had an emotional situation. So when we’re talking about stoic guy, we’re on mission, we have to kind of do the thing. We have those people in real life. Right? There are police officers, firemen, fire women, police women, etc, etc, etc. All the way up to frontline hospital, hospital workers, right? In that context, what I learned from Simon Sinek was that he was walking the base from a mission and a soldier just broke down. And he was allowed the space to experience the emotion… (Lesley: That’s amazing actually), let’s let’s suppose that you’re a young boy, in elementary school, and you have any emotional outbursts? What’s the first thing the teacher does?… (Brad: They’ll yell at you) yell at you, discipline you, stop it, be quiet and sit down… (Brad: Yeah) Okay, so that’s that piece. All right? So now we’re in a professional context. Has anybody or any of the listeners you ever had a angry boss or a sad boss?

Lesley Logan 41:48
Oh, I haven’t, no, I’ve always had like, they were lovely people, or they were horrible people that you did not want have your emotions around.

Jay Twining 41:56
Right? So and this is just this world, right? This is just this world where when, when kind of like when guys revalue and other guys, depending on your emotional maturity. That’s the key point here. As an individual, depending on your emotional maturity, you’re in tune with your own emotions and your ability to perceive and react or have empathy is the other word, empathy for other people. That’s going to determine how well you are willing to accept an emotional outburst. So let’s bring it back. Right? let’s bring it back into fatherhood. So I had to learn this. Because what I know is that most young fathers haven’t figured out anger yet. There’s a lot of anecdotal stories.

Brad Crowell 42:41
I couldn’t even imagine being in my early 20s. Like, I don’t know, it took me multiple relationships, to identify that anger was actually a big problem in my in my, you know, yeah, in me.

Lesley Logan 42:57
I think and like, gosh, we’ll have to just have this conversation with bringing more people on this whole thing, because what I’m also like, of course, I’m expert, like my own experience. I actually think that like, for women, you’re not gonna have emotions at work, right? For men, you’re not gonna have emotions outside of where you should have any emotions. So in fact, in society, we’re actually not teaching anyone how to go have an emotional moment. Until it sounds like they’re in the military. They just bombed a bunch of people. So it just sounds like we’re waiting till it so fucking extreme that we have to have a moment so… Oh my gosh, I think, I think it’s really amazing what you’re doing and we’ll have to talk more but obviously people can can work with you on this, especially our listeners, you will have men in your life that that made this may absolutely place we’re gonna take a quick break, and we’re going to find out where people can work with Feel Good Fatherhood. Alright, Jay, where can people find you follow you work with you?

Jay Twining 43:50
Got it. My channels on YouTube right now. So it’s youtube.com/atfeelgoodfatherhood. And there’ll be a bunch of you’ll know it’s the channel because there’s a nice blue brick background. In addition to really liking to French Fine Arts. I am a sucker for a turn of the century jazz and a Humphrey Bogart movies Casablanca. I used to do Lindy Hop and Bell bow so swing dancing. That’s how I met my wife. And so I’ve got this whole jazz and music background. I know Brad You and I are going to talk about this at some point. So that’s the channel. That’s where that’s the easiest way and then if you want to engage in a conversation with me this the next best place is LinkedIn. Shoot me a DM let me know how you found me and I’d love to just talk with you and see if there’s any way I can support you or maybe the other way around. Who knows?

Brad Crowell 44:43
You also got your pod right?

Jay Twining 44:45
Yeah, that’s where the pod is, Feel Good Fatherhood is right there at YouTube. Yeah, that’s where you can find tha, that will be out soon. Maybe but maybe by the airing of this episode. I have some some SEO work to make the to make it on all other podcasts platforms.

Lesley Logan 45:00
I love it. This is awesome. Well, before we let you go, real quick, bold, executable, intrinsic, targeted steps people can take to Be It Till They See It. What do you have for us?

Jay Twining 45:09
Got it! All right. So three core steps, three core steps to b2c, it will use the conversation of the video game thing. So I had no video game experience. What did I do? Success leaves clues. I did a whole bunch of research. I did, I read books on it. I found blogs, I found ways of being. An old mentor of mine, Charles Ms. Rocky, he said, If you want to be an investor, you have to do things that investors do. Instead, what do investors do? They read financial reports every single day. That’s what Warren Buffett does. So he said, If you want to do a thing, do the work every day. So the first step is the research. The next step is that research by itself and knowledge isn’t very valuable. You have to apply and practice. So if you want it like for instance, if you want to do investing, there’s you can do historical trades, you can go you can find a way to go to historical trades to practice what you’ve been learning. If you want to make games, you go and make games, like there’s so many tools out there today to do it. It’s it’s relatively straightforward. And then finally, and this is the most critical part is it while you’re practicing and while you’re doing it while you’re doing anything, evaluate if you still like it.

Brad Crowell 46:24
That is amazing.

Lesley Logan 46:28
Oh my gosh, that one, rewind everyone, listen to that one again. It’s so so important… (Brad: Yeah) Jay, you are a phenomenal person. Your journey is incredible. I think so many of us can learn from it and also any of the moms who are worried about their kid playing video games. It is not like being lazy, not taking life they’re learning how computers work and they’re learning different skills along the way. So you know you can monitor screen time I’m okay with that. But they’re not going anywhere nor computer so I think they need to engage with them in some way. How are you gonna use these tips in your life? Let us know tag J, tag the Be It pod, let it, tell us how, what was the most important point to you, what resonate with you the most and until next time, Be It Till You See It!

Lesley Logan
That’s all I’ve got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over on IG at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us help others to BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!

Lesley Logan
‘Be It Till You See It’ is a production of the ‘Bloom Podcast Network’.

Brad Crowell
It’s written, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.

Lesley Logan
It is produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.

Brad Crowell
Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.

Lesley Logan
Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals and Ximena Velasquez for our transcriptions.

Brad Crowell
Also to Angelina Herico for adding all the content to our website. And finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.

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