To Be Yourself,

Know Yourself

Ep. 194 with Lesley & Brad

“Can we let go of the story we’ve been telling ourselves – that ‘this’ is what life is ‘supposed to be’.”

Brad Crowell

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Show Notes

In this episode, Jessica Vann talks about her journey to become a successful entrepreneur despite facing many challenges in her personal and professional life. She shares her inspiring story of how she overcame self-doubt and financial struggles to launch her own business, and how she has continued to grow and thrive in the face of adversity. The episode is packed with practical tips and advice for anyone looking to start their own business, including how to find the right mentor, how to stay motivated, and how to deal with setbacks and failures. Jessica’s upbeat and optimistic attitude is infectious, and her story will leave listeners feeling inspired and empowered to pursue their own dreams and passions. Overall, this is a must-listen episode for anyone looking to start a business or overcome obstacles in their personal or professional life.

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And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at

In this episode you will learn about:

  • OPC is getting a mobile app!
  • Why you want to use the Magic Number Calculator
  • The signs that you’re not happy with yourself
  • How to be kind to yourself and your journey
  • Don’t judge yourself when you’re in a bad place.
  • Letting go of the presuppositions of how life is supposed to be.
  • The importance of getting to know your body.

Episode References/Links:


Lesley Logan
Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I’m Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I’ve trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it’s the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It’s a practice, not a perfect. Let’s get started.


Brad Crowell 01:56
Was only one?… (Lesley: Yeah) Wow… (Lesley: I know) feels like we’re known for a long time.

Lesley Logan 02:00
I know, I know it’s because we like random. We’d like to hang out with her again, like probably more often than some (…)

Brad Crowell 02:06
l love this circuit

Lesley Logan 02:08
And also like to be on the journey of her whole condo and all this stuff. So we definitely have had a nice journey with her. But yes, I think it was only one summer ago. I know super crazy. So what’s fun about that interview we’ll talk about in a bit is like we got to get into a lot of different topics about a life of hers. And I really enjoy that I think you can glean a lot from like, listen to someone else’s story. But before we get into Jess Vann interview, first, we are so so close to kicking off our OPC members only challenge is the first time we’re doing a members only challenge we’ve done the challenges before many of you are like where’s the 100? Me? Well, guess what? It’s with the members. That’s where we’re doing it. And so think 80s Members Only jacket, that’s what I’m talking about. So. So if you are like, Oh, I missed an OPC challenge, well then come to OPC. And the OPC app is basically, it’s happening, people.

Brad Crowell 03:04
Surprise! If you didn’t know, OPC is getting an app… (Lesley: Yeah) We’re really fired up about it, it’s actually going to include a bunch of free content in there as well as access to paid memberships, of course. But it’s going to be a really great resource. It’s kind of going to be a one stop shop. And guess what… (Lesley: what?) you’ll be able to listen to the podcast… (Lesley: on the OPC app?) on the OPC app… (Lesley: That’s so fun) Yeah. So when you are listening to the pod, instead of wherever it is, you’ll see now you can actually go into the app, which will be all things OPC and LL and all that kind of stuff, all rolled up into one spot. And you can listen to the pod right in there.

Lesley Logan 03:44
Good. So cool. I love that. What a surprise for me too. So check it out, the OPC app! Do you have a link?

Brad Crowell 03:51
Well, no, it’s not out yet. It will be out in like about two weeks. So this is an announcement. It’s coming

Lesley Logan 03:57
out about to publicly launch (…)

Brad Crowell 04:00
If you are an OPC member already, we will be emailing you. Of course! If you’re not an OPC member, that’s totally fine… (Lesley: You can get the app) But you can still get the app because it’s free content… (Lesley: You can listen to the pod) you can listen to the pod. Just go to and we’ll put you on a little waitlist and we’ll let you know when we’re also emailing all the members to let them know to go download it.

Lesley Logan 04:21
Yeah, so I’m excited about this. It’s a lot of fun. And we get to like make changes along the way. And you know what we could have been just like a website, it’s ever going to be growing and changing and improving but we wanted an app for a really long time. Finally, eLevate Three is about to kick off in one month and at the time that this comes out there may still be some spots left. So you will want to go to If you’re wondering what the hell is eLevate? It’s not an elevator? although I do call the people in the eLevate group elevators. I love it. Elevate is a mentorship for Pilates instructors. You have to have done a somewhat comprehensive pilates training so at least the Mat, Reformer, Cadillac/Tower, Wunda Chair, and the rest of it I’m okay if your training didn’t have that in there, we’ll do a deep dive with that together. But it is we only like 12 people in the first two rounds are sold out, the third round as we speak, as we’re recording this, there’s a couple spots left. But by the time this comes out, it could be full, round for won’t start till 2024. Because that works out that way, round for, 2024. I like the way that number works. So and again, we only take 12 people every round. So you’re definitely going to want to get in on a round that you can get a spot on. So If you are ready to connect more to your practice to your teaching to the connection to this method and have some confidence while doing it. It’s for you.

Brad Crowell 05:40
It’s totally for you. Yeah. All right. So this week, we had a different type of audience question. Normally, it’s about like your practice, or you know, just fun things about life or whatever. But this one was like, totally a business question for people teaching corporate math classes. So if you’re a teacher, and you wanted to get into, you know, like, what if you could, you know, get paid to go into a local company and teach there.

Lesley Logan 06:06
My friend used to teach at Sony every single week, and some of them taught at Paramount, like it was a whole thing. And I think they even like taught enough fitness classes there that they got insurance and I was approached to teach at Google. And I was like, oh, yeah, let me know in the West would want opens up and then COVID and we moved. But whether or not you’re an in place teacher, the answer to this question, if you are in the service industry, or you work for yourself, this answer is going to apply. And so first of all, I don’t know where you live, I don’t know what you do. I don’t know how many people and there’s not enough information. And also, for me to give specific coaching on you’d have an agency member, however, the answer we give to every single person asked us how much do I charge for blank, it doesn’t really matter what the blank is, you need to use our magic calculator tool, this is a free tool, you can go to And you can go to the free resources. And at the top, you’ll see magic calculator… (Brad: Yep) And if you work for yourself, you’ll pick that solo one. And you will fill in the blanks, there’ll be some questions you have to ask specifically, like how much money you want to make any year gross. That means like in considering all your expenses, all your taxes, your profits, all that stuff in one lump sum, and then I’m gonna ask you a series of other questions, you’ll fill that out, it’s gonna spit out a number. Then if you got my book, where I’m sure you can find that on Or you can get a paperback on Amazon. You’re going to see there’s a whole chapter that I have on charging for things like traveling to teach, because it is not just about your hourly rate is this magic number is it’s going to have to include travel.

Brad Crowell 07:39
Yeah. But basically, you know, we can set you up to figure out what is the rate you should be charging with these tools that are already available to you right now, the magic number calculator is totally free, we encourage you to go to the site right now and just log in and use it. And it will help you clarify what you should be charging not only for the corporate thing, but your other rates for your other products as well. So whether you’re teaching private sessions, or duets, or whatever it may be, this will really help you. And then we offer coaching after the fact if you’re if you’re not quite sure what you need to be doing with it, then you can join us an agency and we’re happy to work really dig deep into your magic number with you. In fact, it’s literally my favorite thing to do. I love this coaching call because I find it so revealing. And the thing that lights my fire is when people go, Wait, how much am I already making today? I didn’t even realize that. And all I need to do are these steps and I can be making this other number, right? And it’s really fun for me to like break it all down in a numerical way where you can logically look at things and go, Holy shit, I’m actually amazing. I love that. So anyway, that’s why you should go just use the free magic number calculator on the profit body site. It’ll help you dial all that stuff in. So amazing. Great question.

Brad Crowell 09:28
All right. Now let’s talk about Jessica Vann, a woman who wears many hats. Jessica Vann is an actor, singer, podcast host and entrepreneur who also maintains a full time job working with civic engagement to build a more equitable and anti racist world. Jess is a ball of energy and pa… and she’s passionate about sharing her journey through creative spaces, social justice and leading self discovery.

Lesley Logan 09:53
Yeah, I mean, like really multifaceted is the best word for her and I it’s also really cool to see how someone can take different skill sets they have, and bring them along to other things that they’re doing. And it’s and also, you know, I think there’s an interesting balance that we’ll talk about as we go through this. So we’re changing up a little bit this week, as well have a little bit more of an outline of what last episode was, and a few talking points. So if you remember just shared about how she went from Queen of the Chicago Hill, to being totally burned out, setting back and then finally, recap, recalibrating. So she can get back to being the badass, you know, she is, and she is such a badass, and she is just like, amazing. So we talked for about three things, one, identifying the problem. So specifically, the signs of mental health decline, which, by the way, so many studies are coming out that like, specifically teenage girls are like at the lowest mental health, like, like mental happiness levels ever.

Brad Crowell 10:50
The pandemic, I mean, there’s so many things coming up.

Lesley Logan 10:52
I mean, it’s just all the things which, which was one of the reasons why OPC is now sponsoring a charity that helps with anti bullying. But also like just and then you go in general, just look at the rest of the age groups are like, Oh, we’re all definitely doing terribly bad when it comes to our mental health. So I think it couldn’t be more important for us to understand how to identify the problem number two, recalibrating aka taking a step back. And then number three, the work you do to get good with yourself again, and whatever that means to you like you. And I think like, I think too often we spend so much time trying to get good with other people. And ourselves. Yeah. So anyways, Brad, why don’t you dig into like some of the stuff and then we can go back to those three points.

Brad Crowell 11:33
Yeah, so those three big outline points here. But a quick recap on her story, right? So, Jess has been holding this full time job for a long time. She’s lived in Chicago for 20 years, she was also doing consulting on the side helping companies with, like business development, and also like Leadership Development Team organizational structure, development, some HR stuff. And then when 2020 happened, and there was a demand some these massive demand for DEI consulting, she got very involved in that world, to the point where she felt like it was taking over her life. In fact, she felt like she was being pulled along, instead of leading the way that she normally was. And she was losing herself in that. And it was causing a lot of stress and depression and, you know, internal turmoil. And so I don’t know if she was able to like, place a finger on it and identify the problem. But she did identify the problem. And then she did actually take a step back, and then she then she worked on herself again. And those those things are pretty amazing. And that’s why we kind of wanted to run through each of those points, instead of just pulling out to smaller topics to talk about, I thought this was an amazing, like, I mean, there’s a multi year journey that she went on here.

Lesley Logan 13:01
Yeah, and I and first of all, it’s like something I wish every guests would like do sometimes like, so tell me about this. And they’re like, here are three bullet points of all the things and I’m like, I think there was more in there. And they’re like, Oh, it was great. And it’s like, okay, but like so I really loved her vulnerability here. But she talked about, like, you know, certain notice, like negative self talk. And you guys, I bet there’s a time you can remember you didn’t talk negatively to yourself, I bet it doesn’t have to be like the longest years of time. But I bet you there have been moments in your life where you weren’t doing that. And if you start to notice that it’s like adding up and it’s becoming more of a thing. That is a sign that you’re you’re not a happy camper in where you’re at.

Brad Crowell 13:36
Especially to with her the negative self talk was around things that she formerly was like, super passionate about. Like she went on to a, an audition, and she just shredded herself after the audition was over. And in fact, she said while she was on stage dancing and singing, she was like seeing herself from a third party perspective saying, you know, you’re fucking it all out. What are you doing? This is the worst. I can’t believe you’re doing this. And she’s like, whoa, like, clearly I’m not getting this audition. But what the heck? Well, this is not how I am.

Lesley Logan 13:57
You know, this actually brings me back to Dr. Bender’s most recent episode where she talked about like, reasoning, like we try to reason and what I what I think I like about just like taking, like noticing the signs and then taking that step back to recalibrate it. It’s, it would be easy for her to go Oh, auditioning makes me have negative self talk. But it it wasn’t the actual, like she came into the audition to do something she loved. And then she started having negative self talk. So could have been the audition or could have been everything surrounding that what she was going through at that same time. So I think it’s really important that it’s that to also to say that identifying the problem doesn’t mean that were the acute. It’s kind of like your body, right? So I want to tangent. If you have pain in the front of your shoulder. The problem is not in the front of your shoulder. The problem is in the back of your shoulder. So Tip too often I think we we are so quick to like, identify what the problem is by like she could have so easily been like, oh, auditions make me talking to myself. I’m no longer auditioning. But instead, she like took that bigger step back and she started to notice the signs and figure out what these were. And then that allowed her to like, really start to take a look at things and figure out and it’s an experiment, you’re gonna be like, oh, when you do a little more over here, maybe do a little bit more over here. And you have to be kind to yourself and that journey and that recalibration.

Brad Crowell 15:31
Yeah, I mean, she also said she couldn’t follow up or show up through with tasks, what’s normally she’s like, she she knows, I’m a leader, I execute and I get shit done. And she said she was really struggling to do that. She said, she felt like she was at the point of exhaustion all the time. She also said somehow, in the mix of it all, she was just saying, “Yes,” to everything. And she’s like, I literally should have been saying no to some of the stuff. But I was saying yes, because it was also, you know, like, she didn’t actually say this. But I know like, when you’re in demand, you know, it also strokes, your ego. It feels good. When everyone’s like, I need you to help me, I need you to help me, I need you. And you’re like, sure pay me. Here’s my rates. And they’re saying yes, yes.

Lesley Logan 16:13
Yes. You tart to worry. Especially when you work for yourself, you start to worry that if you stay no, that though maybe it’ll stop.

Brad Crowell 16:21
Especially in the acting world. That’s exactly what everybody talks about.

Lesley Logan 16:24
I mean, you, Jennifer Lawrence, how many years did she freaking film before she’s like, I’m not filming for two years, I’m actually going to go marry someone and I’m going to like have a child but I’m going to do these things. And she’ll completely stop. Yeah, she did, like disappear. And like, that would that’s a that’s you don’t want to get to the point where you have to like literally stop everything, you know, so to get a recalibration.

Brad Crowell 16:46
Yeah. And I thought something was really that was really amazing was she actually was able to I don’t know if in the moment again, but looking back on that she said she was being pulled by the momentum of the path, instead of leading as she normally does. And she was she felt lost in that. And that actually led to depression.

Lesley Logan 17:07
Yeah, oh, I mean, it just it just, well, of course, of course, you’re going to be depressed, if you start to lose yourself as

Brad Crowell 17:15
Well, she also probably didn’t feel in control, you know, like, but, but I, I suppose for me, this is really personal. Because I had a, I was in I was married before, right? And my ex kept saying to me, you need to slow down, you need to slow down, you slow down, you move so fast, fast, fast. And, you know, I know myself, I do move fast. I try to pack too many things in one day, all these things. So I embraced this idea as like my like, like a life embrace. And over, like, over like a year, I really started to slow things down. And I began to watch TV more. And I began to come home and make dinner more and all this kind of stuff. And and I did that for like a number of years. And then when our relationship ended, I didn’t remember who I was. All I knew was I hated myself, I hated who I become. I was like, I did not feel like Brad. I didn’t feel confident. I wasn’t doing music. I wasn’t doing anything. I wasn’t going out. I wasn’t meeting people. I like was not myself anymore. And it was really dark. And I didn’t know, I didn’t even realize that I had gotten to that point. You know, and it was like way past a healthy balance of slowing down.

Lesley Logan 18:31
I think that’s actually fairly normal. Like y’all, if you’re, if you listen to this, and you’re like, oh, this I like really resonate with this. It’s, it’s like a frog in the boiling water. You don’t put the frog in the boiling water, you just slowly turn the heat up. And so that’s what is happening. And often it’s like you’re boiling by the time you’re like, fuck, who am I? So if that is you, or that’s been you, please don’t judge yourself. Like sometimes it takes getting to that point to just really go whoa, like the universe was tapping on you. It was like going Hello, hello, stop. Don’t say yes to that. And like trying to get your attention. And sometimes we get in the way, our ego you said it’s the way the people pleaser in us can get in the way all these different things can happen. And so if you end up on the other side, we’re like, I don’t know who I am anymore. You’re not alone. You you you can find it. And also, you’re going to find the better if you actually take this the time to repeat to to identify the problem like she had and then recalibrate and then do the work, do the work to get back with yourself. You will actually come back better than ever. This year is the 10th year where I like blew my life up and I’m going to tell you right now, thank fucking god, I did that. Thank goodness I got to that rock bottom because I don’t know if I had only gotten like one level down if I would have had done the work that I had to do the climb out to get to a different view of the life I wanted to live and so on. So truly, like, don’t, don’t be too hard on yourself, if that happened to you, because it can actually, you can actually become the best version of yourself on on the way out.

Brad Crowell 20:07
Yeah. Well, let’s move on to the next big step, which she did, which was stepping back, right? So, recalibrating, when she really identified, you know that she was in a bad space. She did something that I thought listening to her story was pretty dramatic, like, pretty drastic, but absolutely the right thing to do. She started saying no, she put things she paused a lot of things. Even so the things that normally would have fueled her before she stopped doing such as reaching out to all of her friends and organizing events and going out to dinners and bars and stuff. She just said, You know what I need? Now I need to not do that like that, you know, like there needs to be. And she she set these boundaries into place. And she said she stopped seeking clients, she stopped pouring into her personal relationships, she was rethinking even the products that she began to offer as a consultant. Right? And then really, she dialed everything back to where she could focus on two things. Number one was her actual full time job where, obviously she’s getting paid. And number two was working on herself. You know, and I think, you know, that that is really amazing to be able to, I mean, that’s so hard, right? You like, what are you like, hey, why don’t you go out for dinner on a Friday night? No. Oh, okay. You know, like, those kinds of things, or, Hey, we’re all gonna go for a hike, you know, if somebody else is inviting you, or if you are the leader, which she’s a leader, you basically stop being the person, the point person to coordinate the group, you know, that can be there’s a lot of that can be a lot of fear, right? That’s your identity, almost, you know, like, this is who I am, this is what I do. This is how I operate. And then she dramatically changed those things because she needed to.

Lesley Logan 22:01
Yeah, yeah. And that’s okay, get to do what you need to do.

Brad Crowell 22:04
Yeah. And I thought there was something really interesting in that, that he didn’t want to talk about before you go into point three, which was she had, she had these presuppositions of where she was supposed to be, how she was supposed to be living all this stuff. And she had, she had to let go of those things. And this is also like, this is a massive thing to identify, right? In her, in her teens, and early 20s self she was, like, course, I’m getting married, and I’m gonna have kids, you know, and she’s like, 35, who the hell knows what, like, 35 I’m gonna be old and dying, right? And today, she’s older than 35. And she said, I’m not married with kids, and I don’t have a house, in the suburbs, all these things that I, I expected out of life, or I thought was just how it was gonna go. That didn’t happen. And so, you know, like, how do you live with that? Do you beat yourself up over that? Do you feel like you’re behind? Do you feel like you’re failing? Or can you actually let go of that story that we’ve been telling ourselves that like, this is what life is quote unquote, supposed to be? Like? What? Who? Who defines that? Like, is that really something we’ve taken with us from childhood all the way to today?

Lesley Logan 23:22
I mean, I think that that really lends itself to the next point which is like, under the like, do the work to get good with yourself it’s like she said, figure it relation to things that you love or loved. You have to like, like you have to do the you know, runaway bride think… try all the fucking eggs. Do you really still like a scramble? Do you like them over easy? Do you like them poached? And then figure out your relationship with your passion or your job? And then ask yourself Are you mentally and physically ready to embrace your passions again, because it is a muscle like if you used to be really passionate movement and then you just stop moving, you have to be kind yourself you can’t just like go back and do the runs used to do you’re gonna be so sore the next day and then you’re gonna feel bad about yourself so you know something like and that’s an that’s a very literal one but like can also be like an analogy like go in it and really test and ask yourself like, how is this working out for me? And the more we can actually get to know ourselves the easier it is for us to the easier is for us to like truly be able… Do you know when we say yes to something that’s a true yes and and know that it’s like yeah, that’s a no no confidence in that? And then also like just so some this whole point, it’s like be yourself and not to be yourself is going to take time to know yourself.

Brad Crowell 24:34
Yeah, and I but I think that Well, you just said the the thing to be yourself, you have to know yourself. And you know the time that she gave herself by setting boundaries by saying no, by focusing on only her work and herself. It allowed her to get to know herself, so that she could actually revisit even the story she told herself have I’m a creative. Is she still a creative? Did she still want to be creative after that experience? Well her answer, you know, she came back to yes, that is what feeds her. But, maybe the answer is no.

Lesley Logan 25:11
Yeah, yeah. And that’s okay too, you know?

Brad Crowell 25:14
All right. Let’s talk about those Be It Action Items what bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your convo with Jessica Vann? Why don’t you jump in here? Because I am so good at her Be It Action Items that it wouldn’t make sense for me to talk about

Lesley Logan 25:51
Yeah, no. No. So (…) Rest, oh my gosh, rest everyone, you know, we’re gonna have an episode coming up with the Brain Profits and rest, Brad, is not going away. We in fact, last night, at the time recording this, I was like, no, like, I don’t want you with dementia, you have to sleep more. So I was on annual dramatic eyes. Listen to your body. This goes very much back with a point number three like to be yourself, you have to know yourself, which means you have to listen to your body. Listen to it. And there’s actually things that your body is going to do. There’s gonna be physical reactions going to have, there’s actually like, in holistic medicine, you can if you hold at least for at least my friend Karina, she holds something that our body wants, her body will lean forward, if she holds, her body doesn’t want her body will lean back. So like getting really good at like listening to your body. And then she finally said at the end of the day, we are vessels. We are vessels and they need to be filled. And some of the strongest things that we need to do is fill it with rest… (Brad: Yeah) so I just, I thought that was such most people are like, here’s all these things you can go do to Be It Till You See It and she’s like, you gotta sleep.

Brad Crowell 27:03
Yeah, sleep and you know, eat, sleep, listen to your body, you know, all those kinds of things. Not my forte that’s for sure.

Lesley Logan 27:12
We’re working on it… (Brad: Yeah) we’re Being It Until We See It. It’s your forte, Brad.

Brad Crowell 27:19
I love it. I love the irony.

Lesley Logan 27:24
Well, Jess, thank you so much for being a guest of ours. I’m Lesley Logan,

Brad Crowell 27:28
and I’m Brad Crowell.

Lesley Logan 27:30
We’re just so freaking grateful for you. I hope you’re enjoying these episodes and by the way I did you notice we added some things at the very end… (Brad: we did) we did, if you’ve ever wanted to be a fly on the wall this room, we are letting that option happen for you. And you don’t even have to turn into a fly to hear what’s going on… (Brad: just stick around to the end) just stick around to the end and you’re gonna hear some fun outtakes and also just like truly really like I am so imperfect and I hope you’ve enjoyed that and it gives you permission. How you would use these tips in your life? We want to know tag the Be It pod, for this episode you can tag Jess Vann. She also is like so fun to watch on her reels I really enjoy them. And send this to a friend, ask us questions to the Be It pod if you want us to answer it here on the next recap and until next time, Be It Till You See It.

Brad Crowell 28:10
Bye for now.

Lesley Logan
That’s all I’ve got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over on IG at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us help others to BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!

Lesley Logan
‘Be It Till You See It’ is a production of ‘Bloom Podcast Network’.

Brad Crowell
It’s written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.

Lesley Logan
Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.

Brad Crowell
Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.

Lesley Logan
Special thanks to our designer Mesh Herico for creating all of our visuals, (which you can’t see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all the video each week, so you can.

Brad Crowell
And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each episode, so you can find it on our website. And finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.

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