INTRODUCTION

Lesley Logan 0:01
Hello, Be It listener. What’s up? Oh my gosh, like, I can’t even believe how fast time is flying and how old this little podcast is. And it’s not even little anymore. It’s growing because of you. And I’m just so grateful that you’re here. Welcome back. We have an interview for you today. We have Thor Challgren. And I mean, I love this person. He’s so sweet and special. And I can’t wait for you to listen to it because what he says is stuff that is in all of our minds. Like, I think that we’re all having conversations with ourselves that no one knows anything about. And his, his way of looking at it, I know is going to shift your perspective and shift the conversation you have. And it’s really special. He is definitely the embodiment of being it till you see it. And also, I can’t wait for you to hear a lot of his talk about permission. And, I say that because I think a lot of you believe that everyone can be it till they see it. And I think you do about you and then you go to do it. And then and then you and then you don’t give yourself that permission. And so anyways, there’s a special thing at the end for you to learn more about permission, have some and some extra slips of that for yourself but take some notes. This is a fun conversation. And for my parents out there, I really think you’re gonna love this person so much and what he’s working on for empty nesters and everyone is really fun. So please make sure you follow him on Instagram at Thor Challgren and check out his link that he’s so kindly giving to everyone it’s at the end. So you’ll have to get all the way there. But I it’s gonna go by you’re gonna love it. I think you’re going to be like, high fiving yourself along the way and going, “Yes, I feel that same way too.” And if that’s how you are with these podcasts, if you feel like you’re having a conversation with the guest or myself, you know, you can let us know. (Lesley laughs) Because it’s so fun for people like Thor and myself, (he also the podcast) to hear what comes up for you and how you use these tips. Use the talk use, even if it just makes you go, “Oh yeah, that’s me” and helps you not feel like because you’re not alone, right? We’re all feeling the same way. So we love it because it really does let us know like how what we’re doing is helping you and that’s why we do this. We … we trust me I don’t like the sound of my voice. So I definitely do this for you. Okay, so I’m going to stop yammering on because I want you to hear a Thor’s amazingness after this brief message.

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Lesley Logan
Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I’m Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and business fitness coach. I’ve trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it’s the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It’s a practice, not a perfect. Let’s get started.

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EPISODE

Lesley Logan 3:16
Alright, Be It Till You See it peeps. I’m really excited. We have Thor Challgren here and we were connected. I’m not even sure. We’ll find out in a second. I don’t know if he reached out to me. Or if somebody connected us we’re in a mastermind group together. And we got on a call and there’s so much alignment. He doesn’t believe in perfection. He totally believes in … what’s permission and he also likes to write with a pen, which I want to do. I want to be someone who can write with a pen, I am left handed, and I can’t read my own handwriting. (Lesley laughs) But I am really excited, because you guys are going to listen, you’re gonna hear so many amazing tips and steps and also for my parents in the listener room, I want you to totally hear his story because I think he kind of stepped into what he’s doing now because of taking a kid off to college. So I’m gonna, I’m not gonna spoil alert this anymore. I’m gonna let Thor tell it all. Thor, thank you for being here. Can you tell everyone who you are, where you’re from and what you’re rocking right now?

Thor Challgren 4:17
Hey, yeah, thank you, Lesley, it’s great to be with you in your audience today. My name is Thor Challgren. I am in the Southern California area. I’ve lived here most of my life, raised my daughter in this area. And now she’s off and doing amazing stuff in the world. And it was that experience a couple of years ago, that led me to sort of move in this direction, because I saw what I experienced as a stay at home parent, essentially. And I knew what I felt. And I thought I can’t be the only person that has a hard time dealing with this. And so that kind of led me on the path I’m on now.

Lesley Logan 4:58
Yeah, so um, so I want to dive into taking your daughter off to college. But what, what did like so you take her off to college, and she’s like, “Bye. I’m out living my best life.” And you’re like, “What do I do now?” So, what what do you do now? (Lesley laughs)

Thor Challgren 5:14
Well, you know, it’s funny, because like, the first thing that that I had no idea this was going to happen this way. Which it’s sounds silly to say it, but we were expecting that we’re gonna have a whole other day with her. And I remember we were sitting in the student union one afternoon, and I had gone off to the bathroom, I come back and she’s like, “Well, I’m going to say goodbye now.” And I’m like, “Wait, what? No, like, we’re going to go to dinner tonight. And we’re going to have all this time together.” And so it’s just like, the sadness, like, almost right away like that letting go. And so that was kind of my first lesson was, you may, when these things happen, you can’t expect when they’re going to happen. And so you just have to accept that they will and then start to move on. And my, my moving on process wasn’t very elegant at first, like, I was super, like, for the next hour I was like the lowest I’ve ever been in my life. Like it just so much just sadness and and you know, I mean, it sounds silly to say but feeling of loss, like (Lesley: Yeah) because like that was my identity of being that parent who was like, I was the soccer coach, I started her girl scout troop. I was the cheer booster president. So like, all the activities and things she did. I was there to support her. So when she went off, I’m like, “Well, who am I now?”

Lesley Logan 6:37
Yeah, like, what’s your purpo… like, and without purpose? That’s like … (Thor: Yeah) Right. (Thor: And that’s …) Well, I just say, like they have discovered, right? Like, it’s not happiness, we’re all searching for its purpose. And, and when you that loss, that’s a big loss. That’s like, if anyone’s listening, it’s like the same if you don’t have kids, because I mean, I don’t but like, it’s like losing your job almost. Because like, that was what gave you clarity around, structure around your day. And like, “Okay, this is a goal I’m working on because of that.” Is that right? Am I on the right track?

Thor Challgren 7:08
Oh, 100% yeah, I mean, it’s all that identity too. Like, think about like the anytime that you’ve ever had a big change in your life, like maybe you worked in a job, and then you get laid off or you change the job, then the next time you meet someone, and they go, “Oh, like, what do you do?” Instinctively, you want to say that thing you used to be and then you catch yourself and you go, “Wait, I’m not that anymore.” (Lesley: Yeah) And then it starts this loop of like, “Well, then who am I?” (Lesley: Yeah.) So I think that idea of identity is so important that like you have to be congruent about who you are, before you can go out into the world and let that … that’s why I think like the whole, be it before you see it idea so important, because you have to be aware of who am I being? And that’s and that starts sometimes with who was I? And now who am I?

Lesley Logan 8:02
Yeah, so what did you do? So you’re that very, you’re in a very sad hour, and then like the next step, so how did you figure out who you could be until that happened? Because, I mean, that’s like starting from scratch. And I think a lot of people have, like, maybe our listeners are there, but have been there and it’s like, okay, we’ll all just, you’re gonna be there again, like we’re all gonna have these shifts and changes and these role changes that are planned or unexpected. And so what did you do next?

Thor Challgren 8:30
Well, in a word, celebrate.(Lesley: gasps) And, I say that because I’m kidding, but in a sense, not. So we’re on this bus going back to this is in Washington, DC. And my wife can see like, I’m so down and she’s like, “You know what, let’s, let’s go to it, there was this bar in Dupont Circle that I’d seen. It was like an Irish pub or something like that.” And she said, “You were interested in that place. Let’s go there, have a drink and we’ll start to change our energy.” And so, Lesley, that moment was so key, because it was like, sitting down, having a drink, not that you have to drink, but (Lesley: right) changing your state (Lesley: Yeah) from where you were to where you are now, and then starting to think about what our life could be like and starting that dreaming. And I think that was the key was, you know, I mean, there, yeah, there would be hard days to come. But starting that energy of celebrating, and I think, you know, you said shift, it is a shift of your energy. Because if my energy is in that, like, depressed, sad, woe is me, this is the best thing I’ll ever do in my life energy. I’m not going to be able to be available to connect with any of the great things that could be out there for me. So that that first step for us was celebrating, it was going, “Well, what could we do now?” Like, … start to think about all the great things you could have.

Lesley Logan 10:01
100% and I, when you said, celebrate, y’all, I swear, I don’t script these things before they happen. It’s not impossible. I don’t even have the time. But I study so much about human behavior. And like, how do we create routines and change our mindset and celebration literally kicks off dopamine, so it changes your state. And so because it’s you don’t need the drink, you can actually just dance around, you can actually like, you know, high five, someone, you can actually look at yourself in the mirror, “I’m freaking awesome.” But celebrating shifts that energy, and it puts you in a state that could see what was possible because you moved into a happier space. And so and I you mentioned earlier, like it wasn’t elegant. And I, I just don’t think it ever is (Lesley laughs) I don’t think I don’t think anything’s elegant. Even those beautiful weddings that people think, “Oh my God, look how beautiful and elegant it is.” There’s a lot of hot mess happening in the back of, in the back, you’re not seeing. (Lesley laughs)

Thor Challgren 10:58
Yeah, that’s 100% true. And I think anyone who’d seen me, like even that night, even after we celebrated and this is the point, I think, like give yourself grace that it’s not going to be perfect. That night, I go back and I’m sitting in the bed in our hotel room, and I just start crying. I can’t stop (Lesley: Yeah) like, and I’m not a sad person, by any means. But I think you give yourself that grace and let the feelings come out. But know that you are starting the process of moving on to that energy of what’s next for you.

Lesley Logan 11:30
Yeah. So when you got home, and you’re like, “I can’t be the only person who’s feeling this way.” How did you turn that into something that you do with purpose? Like, what did that end up looking like for you?

Thor Challgren 11:43
Yeah, I mean, I would say the first step is you have to be okay with maybe I can do something even better than that. And that is a huge, for me, that was a big struggle, because most parents, you know, it’s drummed into us in society that like, “Oh, the best thing you’ll ever do is be a parent.” And maybe that’s true but what is does that say if that is true? Like, if you go, you know, I’ve got 30 years of my life left. And if I truly believe that the best thing I ever did, is in the past, what kind of way to live life is that. So for me it I started to think about permission, I had to give myself permission first to do something greater than just be her father.

Lesley Logan 12:39
Yeah. So, I gush like, I, because I work with mostly I work with women. But there’s a whole, there’s a whole … like, this is my everything. And it’s like, “Okay, I don’t ever want to take your everything away from your but having been a kid who left college at 18 and never went back home. (Lesley laughs) Can I just suggest that we have another thing that we do?” And so but I love that word permission. And so how did you come up with that word and for yourself? And like how, what does it let you do since you’ve been giving yourself that? Like, is it one time and then it’s over? Or do you give yourself permission more often than that?

Thor Challgren 13:19
It’s all the time. Lesley, it’s all the time. Meaning, you know, you we have you know, you talked about the way the brain works in our subconscious. We have all sorts of things that are swirling around in there that are reasons why we can or can’t do something and we may not even be aware of them until we consciously choose to explore them. And so for me, it’s a constant process of, you know, my my routine is many times in the morning, I’ll be journaling, and I’ll explore with certain questions, what I think about something, and sometimes it’s nothing, you know, I don’t get anything, but then there’s other times where like, an answer will come to me that will be like, “Oh, wow, like, where did that come from?” Like, you know, I might ask a question, like, “Who doesn’t think I can do this?” And I’ll come up with like, “Well, my wife doesn’t, or my, my late mother wouldn’t.” And then you explore that, and you start to go, “Oh, like, why is that?” And then in that process, you start to uncover it, those sort of hidden beliefs. And when you bring them out into the open, now you’re letting yourself have permission to let them go. And that changes your energy.

Lesley Logan 14:41
That is interesting. So do you find when people, when you did that. Like, did you find that was a story you’re telling yourself that those people didn’t think you could? Or is it was it real? Well, it was it made just to be personal on the person?

Thor Challgren 14:55
You know, I think it’s, it’s a little of both, I would find that, you know, I would look back and say, “Well, who doesn’t think I could do this?” And one of the questions I would ask is, if I don’t succeed at this, the reason will be and then fill in the blank. And, and so I’d asked myself and you and you got to be really honest with yourself and go, “If I don’t succeed at this, what will be the reason?” And I go like, alright, well, in the past, I tried these things like I had 20 years ago, I had an audio product, where I went out and interviewed people and created little cassette tapes, and that was my business, like, I did the whole thing. And this is before, you know, podcasts or the internet or anything (Lesley: Oh my God, you were podcasting before podcasting.) I know. And, and yet, it didn’t succeed, because I was trying to do everything myself. And it I mean, if I’d given it more time, but that’s an example for me of something where I didn’t succeed. And so by exploring that, and my feelings that I still have about that, I could more easily let go of those. So that I’m giving myself permission that yes, I know, that happened in the past. And I know that I have unresolved things and I don’t need to explore it, like in a therapy situation, like, I don’t need to know why I just need to know it exists. And now I’m choosing consciously to let go of that energy.

Lesley Logan 16:19
I really like that because I do think that so many people stop themselves from doing something new, because of something in the past, but they don’t actually explore what that thing was. And like, look at it, like a 30,000 foot view, like non personal view, like more as a fact, more as like an experiment, you know, and I know that I definitely was like that, and only until we’re owning my own business and realizing that, you know, if you look at it as like an experiment, and not like it’s personal, it makes it really easy for you to go, “Okay, I just need to dial the knob and turn the volume up here and turn the volume down here, as opposed to no one liked it. It’s because no one likes me. And I’m terrible.” (Lesley laughs) Right?

Thor Challgren 17:00
Yeah. And I think what you said is super critical that you be able to step back and just look at yourself and not have judgment about yourself. And that’s the hardest thing for all of us because we all we all want to be great. We want to do great things. And so that passion drives us, but it can also be our undoing in the sense that it creates blind spots. So to be able to step outside of yourself and go, “Well, why does Thor think that?” I know that silly to say it, but like, think of yourself as stepping outside of yourself and ask those questions and then go and not you know, what else you said I loved is the idea of, not giving something any more meaning than it deserves, because we say something mean something. But does it really? Like it only is the meaning we give it so if we choose not to like if I look back at that situation in the past and go, you know, I’m not gonna I’m not going to give it the meaning of “Thor’s a failure because that didn’t happen.” You know, I’m just gonna be like, “Okay, it happened and and what can I learn from it? And how can I move on?”

Lesley Logan 18:11
Right? Like, it’s just another thing. You said something that I liked where you talked about, you said “what Thor feels like, bah, bah, bah. Why is that?” So many people have advice for someone else in their same situation, but not for themselves. And I think by doing what you just did, which is like, saying it out loud as if it’s not you. It’s just someone else. It really does allow you to take all the information you already know like everyone listening you all have the answer is inside of you, you already know how to be it till you see it, you’re telling yourself you don’t know. You’re telling yourself you can’t because of X, Y and Z. But if you if you step outside yourself and you look at it as someone else’s life, I bet you’d have all the advices tell them what to do. So, I’m wondering like, as, as you gone through this, and you’ve been giving yourself this permission, and what has, like, what is it allowed you to do? Because how many how long has she been in college? She graduating this year, is she second year?

Thor Challgren 19:09
She’s in her, she’s in her final year.

Lesley Logan 19:11
Oh my gosh. Okay. So in these four years of giving yourself (Thor: Yup) permission to create something greater. What have you been able to play with? What have you been creating?

Thor Challgren 19:22
One of the things that I did was I started exploring that idea of identity. And I mentioned before that, you know, people would say, I met people, and they’d say, well, you know, “Hey, what do you do?” And I, I would stop myself, because I couldn’t say, “I’m a stay at home parent anymore.” (Thor laughs) So then I’m like, “What do I do?” And so I started thinking about, like, what we say about ourselves. And what that led me to was, I think, till you know, what your greater purpose is, it’s okay to have, like a mini purpose, a short term purpose, where you go, and this is like, what I’m doing right now, is I decided for these next couple of months, I’m going to host a series of dinner parties, where I’m going to learn how to cook some amazing dish, you know, like, go to like a Julia Child’s cookbook or something like that. And, I’m going to invite over some people, and we’re going to have a an elegant dinner party so that I would be able to the way that I think of it is now I could say if I met someone, I could say, “Well, I’m I’m a gourmet cook,” because that was something that, like we always said about my mom, my family was “She was an amazing cook.” And so if you ever looked at her, you’d say, “Oh, she’s a gourmet cook.” So, I think that is I’ve had like a series of little things like that, where I go, it’s a short term identity. And what’s key for me is, it doesn’t have to be the rest of my life identity. And that’s where I think a lot of us get stuck, is we go, you know, maybe if we’re leaving a job, or we’re leaving a relationship or in my case, you know, empty nest situation, we go, “Well, I’ve got to figure out the whole rest of my life right now.” Like, if I’m gonna have one purpose for the rest of my life, and I got to figure it out now. And so we put so much pressure on ourselves, that it becomes debilitating, and you don’t even know where to start. So, I think like (Lesley: I’m obsessed with this) … start with two months.

Lesley Logan 21:21
Yeah, I’m obsessed with this because I also … we would never, right? I mean, like, as, um, I don’t know, if I was one of the last groups where like, like, “You have to know what you want to do.” And I think kids today their like, “major in whatever, because it’s probably not going to be around when you’re adults and working.” But like, we would never tell a kid anymore like, “Whatever you major in, that’s it, you better pick the best major because you could never change,” we would never do that. But for whatever reason, at some point, we get older, we’re like, “Welp, I gotta figure out my next thing,” because it’s gonna be the only thing and there’s so much pressure. And I love that that mini purpose allows you to explore, it allows you to take messy action, because it’s okay if it’s wrong, because it’s so many. It’s a to use a two months, I think that’s, I think that’s fun. I like that it’s more than 30 days, because I think you need to, I think something has to percolate a little longer. So you can, like, see what kind of comes up in different seasons. But that’s fun. I mean, what a way to be it till you see, you could just, I’m just gonna be it for two months, I’m just gonna (Lesley laughs)

Thor Challgren 22:18
And you take the pressure off, because and what I I sort of the rules that I set for myself were that it had to be fun. So it can’t be like, “I’m gonna clean out my garage in the next two months, or I’m gonna paint the house,” it’s got to be something fun, or something that energizes you. One of the ones that I did that was just sort of fun for me was I remembered like growing up, we had like Legos. And back in those days, like Legos were just, you didn’t have a kit with whatever you build. It was just all sorts of blocks. (Lesley: Yeah.) So, I thought it would be fun to like get a Lego kit and build a Lego kit and just have that be something that I do over you know, in my spare time over a couple months.

Lesley Logan 23:01
I mean, they’re those kits now like 1000 pieces like that could take you (Thor: It’s insane), you could literally go, “Oh, well, I create Legos, kit sets.” It’s like, (Thor: Yeah) I like that you you’re soft with identity because I do think that people need to have something to practice to say and so it is because it’s not like you say, “I’m a retired stay at home parent ” It’s like what does that mean? (Lesley and Thor laughs) You know, but I but I hear that all the time because sometimes I hear in a different way. Like, I don’t want to just be, enter the job that they have. And, and I unders… I mean like I I remember, you know, I was a, only a Pilates instructor for a long time, I worked for myself but also worked for another company. So, I’d say, “Oh, I’m a Pilates instructor” which is also very interesting people like, “What is that?” Like, “Oh, I’ve heard about it, but what do you what do you do?” And now, you know, that doesn’t even encompass everything that I do. Like I couldn’t. So, I also I can’t list off everything that I do, because that’s weird. So, I had to like kind of make up. Like, what it is that I say, and it should take some time and like, what would you say to someone who’s like, maybe they don’t, maybe they’re on their way to changing what they are? But maybe they can’t say that yet or they don’t feel comfortable? And how did you get comfortable saying something different? Did you practice it? Did you put yourself in situations to say it, but was it?

Thor Challgren 24:23
Yeah, I think it’s, it’s a great question. And I think the answer is that it evolves. And I’m constantly finding new tools that help me, the first was examining in the moment, like, again, stepping outside of Thor, and going, “Oh, you know, when that when you answer that question, you didn’t feel good about the answer did you? Or you felt self conscious about the answer?” And then to explore that, like, “Why is that?” And and start to ask those questions that maybe aren’t totally comfortable. But the answers are, where you’re going to grow. Because they’re going to help you understand where can you push against the things where you’re uncomfortable? Um …

Lesley Logan 25:02
Do you, do you write that down that conversation or do you have it in your head? Because we have I know that there’s perfectionist listening here. For recovering perfectionist. Gonna want to know how you do this? Do you write it down? Do you have a conversation with yourself?

Thor Challgren 25:14
You know what, it’s, I’ll attribute this to Julia Cameron, who wrote the, Morning …

Lesley Logan 25:22
Oh, Artist’s Way Morning Pages.

Thor Challgren 25:25
Artist’s Way. Yeah, (Lesley: Well …) The Morning Pages. That is the best thing. And I’ll say the reason why and this is the part that is super critical that she’ll say, because I remember I struggled with this in the beginning, she’ll be like, “You have to write three pages and they have to be by hand.” And I’m like, “No, I want to type it. I’m faster, I’ll get more out.” And so but that was never as helpful to me. So, what I do in the page… The Morning Pages is, I’m sitting there going, “Alright, I’ve got to fill up this page. What I’m going to say now? I don’t know what I’m going to say now. Oh, look, I’m stumbling, I have no idea.” And I might do that for like half a page where I’m literally just writing gibberish. And then once I’ve let go of any resistance, guess what happens? The universe, the quantum field, higher power, starts to flow through me. And then the stuff like it happened on Friday where something, I was just the middle of it. I was I had sort of given up on something and not given up in a bad way. But I let go of the resistance of the attachment of I must do it. Suddenly, in the very last paragraph of the third page, the answer came to me. And I wasn’t even looking for it. It was just like this thought just popped in my head and was there and then I explored it. And I mean I was so grateful for it but I didn’t go into it expecting it. I wasn’t like, “I’m going to you know, write here for that purpose.” So, I think that’s that idea of just writing and being okay with whatever comes out is so helpful.

Lesley Logan 22:59
Yeah, I we’re big fans of morning pages around here. Love them and it’s so funny. When my my therapist was like, you know, “We really want you to journal” and I was like, “Okay, yup, I have a journal, don’t worry.” And then then a week later, I’m like, “So okay, I actually don’t know how you journal like, what do you do? I need to know the rules like what am I writing about? Do I answer and question? What am I starting with?” And she’s like, “I think you just need to do morning pages.” And I’m like, “Oh, I’ve heard of the book.” She’s like, “Don’t even read it. Here’s you’re gonna do, your gonna write three pages on legal paper. You’re not going to reread them. That’s the rule that I want you to follow.” And just and I was like, okay, so I wrote like, “Oh, I’m really angry in the morning. I didn’t know I was angry the morning. Well, I’m not … I thought I was a morning person.” Right? Talk about identity. But what I’m a morning person I should be happy in the morning? And it’s like, “Who said? Who said you can’t just be up in the morning and not be happy. And like you go through it.” But when I did it the first week, this… and the things that came to me around what I was afraid of, around when I was frustrated by there things that I couldn’t even articulate. And like as I mentioned in this episode already, but my listeners know I can’t read my handwriting. You don’t have to so you could just be in the dark just like writing and it’s kind of crazy what comes up so I do I do love that. I think that’s a great idea. I love that’s what you do. Okay, what are you Thor excited about right now? What are you working on? What are you cooking up?

Thor Challgren 28:23
I am super excited and this isn’t even my stuff. But it’s it’s made a huge difference to me. Mel Robbins has a new book out now called “The High 5 Habit.” And I just started I picked it up because I read her book years ago “The 5 Second Rule.” This in “The High 5 Habit” one of the things she has you do is in the morning, you go and look at yourself in the mirror, and you give yourself in the mirror a high five. (Lesley: love it) It’s insane. Like it’s super simple, but that idea of being comfortable with that is so valuable. And and, you know, what she says is we don’t look at ourselves. Like the first thing in the morning, when you see yourself in the mirror, most of us, you know, will be like, “Oh, you know, my hair, I don’t have enough of it,” or whatever you’d like, look at your face and go, “I don’t like it.” So your first thoughts are, “I don’t like myself.” So she’s like, “You got to change that energy from the start.” So, (Lesley: Oh…) I’m obsessed with giving myself a high five in the mirror without breaking the mirror.

Lesley Logan 29:26
Right. And she’s on. So BJ Fogg from Tiny Habits, who is the person who taught the Instagramers how habits are made, but also the founders. And then also like James Clear from Atomic Habits study with him. So, I got to study with him. It’s really cool. And he has this like Maui habit, which is like, as soon as your feet hit the ground, you say, “Today’s game is amazing day and you go victory, or I’m amazing, or you celebrate in some way.” That’s how you create the habit. Right? Once you got the habit in place, you don’t have to celebrate anymore. But what she’s created is like you look in the mirror and you tell yourself something awesome. And when you high five yourself, there’s that dopamine kick. And it literally that’s something you can create a habit. And it probably took you probably three days to like make that a thing. (Thor: Yeah) Yeah. (Thor: Yeah) Right? Because the dopamine was there in your brains, like, “I want to high five myself more.” And what I love about that is like, I think you’re right. I think too often we see ourselves with so much judgment, and then we don’t fo, we don’t help ourselves enough. Well, we’re willing to put ourselves out there to help others so much. And like you’re specially, stay home parents are like, let me give, give, give, give, and then eventually you, the person’s out of the nest and you you’ve been practicing giving so much you haven’t taken for you. So I think that’s really I love that that’s what you’re doing right now for you. (Lesley laughs) Okay, so you mentioned earlier, I want to go a little bit over permission, because I think this word is so great. And I think it’s really key for being it till you see it because you have to actually give yourself permission to be something you’re not good at yet. So can you talk a little bit about permission and like what that looks like for you?

Thor Challgren 30:58
Yeah, it’s for me, it’s a series of questions that I explore. And sometimes I do it in morning pages, sometimes I’m just aware of the question. It may also be when something comes up, I’ll go apply this question. And so it’s, you start by asking yourself the question, is it okay, and I went, you know, go back to the idea of, “Is it okay for me to do something greater than being a father?” And that was like a really important moment because if I, if the answer to that was “No, it’s not,” then everything I try, like, I can go out and be it but I may not see it, because what will happen is I’ll self sabotage myself from it happening. So those questions allow me to explore whether or not I truly believe it’s okay, whether I’m truly able to give myself permission. You know, why I came up with this idea, because that idea when we’re in elementary school, and we want to leave the classroom, we have to ask the teacher for a permission slip, right? (Lesley: Yeah) Like, the the leaving the classroom is freedom and so you have to ask someone else for permission. I think that’s essentially what you’re doing now is you’re asking yourself, “Is it okay if I be this thing or do this thing or have this thing?” And and then be willing to uncover that the places where maybe you don’t yet believe it.

Lesley Logan 32:27
Oh, that’s so good. Oh, my gosh. Okay, okay Thor, where can everyone follow you, find you, stalk you and get permission? Could you … can they how do they can they get these permission slips from you because you have some good ones.

Thor Challgren 32:39
Absolutely, I would be delighted to share them with your audience, I will put them on a website page. And it’s my website, which is yourturntofly.com forward slash Lesley. So your listeners go there, easy to find, download those and, and I be curious, reach out to me on Instagram. I’m at @thorchallgren and let me know how they go for you and how you implement them. Because I’m always interested in how, you know, like the people that I work with, how are they using those tools? And what insights are they discovering, because I just I think that’s the part that’s amazing about people is when they start to really apply themselves that the things that they find are amazing.

Lesley Logan 33:19
I agree. Like, I’m obsessed. We, I love when everyone shares their takeaways from the podcast or like, even from my classes, like I’ll be reading posts, and I’m like, “Wow, you got all that from that. That’s amazing. That’s so cool.” That’s like definitely like I like to be shocked and awed. And then I also like when I’m like, “Yes, that’s exactly what I wanted.” So it is fun, y’all I mean, we say it all the time, but screenshot this and tag Thor and @be_it_pod and let us know what those permission slips are able to give you so that we can also just celebrate you. Okay, so we asked everyone, best advice, best tips for being it till you see it. So bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted steps that people can take right now. So what do you have for us?

Thor Challgren 34:02
I’m going to go with executable, and it’s something everybody has. And it’s these two things, (Lesley: Okay) a pad and a pen. And here’s why I say this. So many times when we think about what we want to be, or do, we create in our minds, “Oh, it’s got to be this really complicated thing.” Like, “I’ll do that later when I’ve got to open up Word, or I got to have that document or I got to talk to that person.” And so we delay ourselves from taking action. I found ever since I started doing this, and it sounds stupid, but like, I would just if I knew I had to do something, I would just start it on a piece of paper, and the starting of it, the executing of it begins that process. And now suddenly, that thing that may be in your mind was like, it’s this big thing that you go, “Oh, it’s gonna…I have to really have time to sit down and do that.” No, you just start it, execute it. And you’ll find that that’s gonna start to change your energy around it. And then I’ve done that, where I’ll be in the middle of something that I thought was only going to be like, a minute. And half an hour later, I’m like, “Oh, my God, this is amazing.” Like, and so I a pen and a piece of paper and just execute.

Lesley Logan 35:06
I love that because there that is taking action and action is the antidote to fear. It’s also where it can get clarity. And so sometimes you’re like, “Oh, my God, it’s gonna take forever.” But if you like you said, just start writing it down. You might realize, oh, you know, this, I can actually this is 20 minutes later, like, “Okay, I have the framework. I was putting this like” that, I’m someone who does that, like, “Ah, it’s gonna take so much time.” And there’s just one program that I had been kept putting off, kept putting off and my coach was like, “So look, you are out of excuses on putting this up.”And I’m like, “I know, but it’s just gonna take so much time.” And then I was like, “Okay, I’m gonna give myself five minutes to write it out.” In five minutes, I had the framework, I had the purpose. I knew the problem, it solved. And I was like, and I was like, “I had a general idea of how much was going to cost,” and I was like, “Oh, well, we’re ready to go actually.” (Lesley laughs) So, I love that I think that’s such a great one of the things I love so much is that I don’t think I’ve ever heard the same Be It action item from (Lesley laughs) of our guests, and their…, and I love when they’re free. So thank you so much, Thor for just sharing who you are so vulnerably. And also, I think, the authenticity around it. I don’t I can’t imagine there’s anyone who’s like, “No, I don’t get that.” Like even if you don’t have kids, like you know what it’s like to have an identity shift. You know what it’s like to have a loss or to have a sense of purposelessness. And, I’m excited for your daughter to graduate. I feel (Thor: Thank you) like I feel like you’re you’re graduating too (Lesley laughs) and, and everyone check out @thorchallgren on Instagram. Definitely hit up the permission slip link, we’ll put it in the show notes below. And until next time, Be It Till You See It.

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Lesley Logan
That’s all I’ve got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast! One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram! I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us help others to BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!

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Lesley Logan
‘Be It Till You See It’ is a production of ‘As The Crows Fly Media’.

Brad Crowell
It’s written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.

Lesley Logan
Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.

Brad Crowell
Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.

Lesley Logan
Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can’t see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all video each week so you can.

Brad Crowell
And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each of our episodes so you can find them on our website. And, finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.