Get Curious, Question
People, Question Yourself
Ep. 192 with Lesley & Brad
“Figure out how it aligns with the purpose.”
How could taking 2% out of your day change your whole life? Tune in for an episode to narrow down your purpose, create space for new directions, and allow curiosity to lead.
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In this episode you will learn about:
- All the details for OPC insider news
- How to connect workshops and pilates exercises together
- The first step in discovering your purpose
- How you create space to be curious and purposeful
- The value of curiosity
Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I’m Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I’ve trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it’s the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It’s a practice, not a perfect. Let’s get started.
Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co host in life Brad and I are going to dig into the purposeful convo I had with Adrian Starks in our last episode. If you haven’t like yet listened to that interview. Feel free to pause this now. Go back. Listen to that one. I swear you’re gonna fucking love his voice. I promise you… (Brad: Yeah) you know what? Actually, I said, narrator I want him to do those nighttime stories. He should do nighttime stories. I would fall asleep to him like reading the phone book. Absolutely wonderful, Adrian, that’s a new job for you. So listen to his voice and come back and join us and let me know what else he should narrate. Because I just, I’m just like, you just keep telling your story. It’s great. It’s a great voice.(brad: I love it) Alright, so before we talk about Adrian, we just had the very first one day workshop situation for people on the on one on one exercise… (Brad: on OPC) on OPC. And it was so fun because we did the workout, which is kind of like what we do on OPC… (Brad: It was roll up on the mat) roll up on the mat. That was the theme. So the workout was dedicated to that exercise.
Brad Crowell 2:15
Yeah, the replay just expired last night.
Lesley Logan 2:17
Yeah. So when I create OPC classes, well actually when any teacher creates an OPC class actually think about an exercise or a skill set you need in Pilates, and we thread that through the entire workout. And so that’s what we’re known for. And so the roll up can be a very annoying, frustrating exercise. And what we did was I created a workout that would actually help you understand the roll up better in your body by the end of the workout. Then we did a little digging in deep with our OPC teachers and they share like what they struggle with and the roll up and how they got around it because everyone has a different body. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. And then we did the class again. Yeah, because of OPC you actually repeat the same class.
Brad Crowell 2:57
I thought it was cool. I thought it was cool that you did it a second time because now you had the first experience then you discuss things and then you got a second shot at that.
Lesley Logan 3:06
Yeah, yeah! And so anyways, people had a lot of fun with it. And so we will we were hoping to do another one later this year on a different exercise. You want to go to opc.me/workshops to get on the what is it a waitlist
Brad Crowell 3:21
Waitlist for future workshops. Yeah, opc.me/workshops
Lesley Logan 3:25
Somebody might be thinking oh, why get on the waitlist, they’ll just tell me about it later. No, here’s why algorithms you get busy life changes and also anyone on the waitlist always either gets a special gift or a special discount or something fun fucking happens to people on a waitlist just so you know people on the retreat waitlist got a discount low. So you just want to be on waitlist because we like to give gifts.
Brad Crowell 3:45
Yeah, so and also, we’re changing the way that our companies work. We are no longer going to be shouting from the rooftops on social, buy my stuff, buy my stuff… (Lelsley: Yeah) So what will the people who are on our waitlist will find out about the really cool things that we’re offering now. So just be advised. Yeah.
Lesley Logan 4:06
And if you’re on social you have less of a chance of hearing about it. So that’s all… (Brad: Yeah) be be one of the insiders. Okay. And OPC members last week, we told you there’s something exciting coming up, and there’s still something exciting coming up and we’re not telling you yet. (brad: This is the longest tease) I have no idea. I have no idea when Brad’s gonna let me tell you but I’ve been spilling the beans to a few people.
Brad Crowell 4:28
Yeah, we were well FYI there’s something cool for OPC for the OPC community
Lesley Logan 4:36
If you don’t know what it is, it means you were not at the live workout for March and it also means you have not watched the end of the live workout for March. So now I know… (Brad: That’s true) And finally finally finally, at the time of this recording, we have a few spots left in round three of my mentorship for elevate. I’m not gonna go into too much detail here because you can, you heard about last week. You can also hear about it in other ways by going to Lesleylogan.co/elevate, Lesleylogan.co/elevate, because that’s what we’re about to do with your practice your teaching and your connection to the method. I call them my elevators… (Brad: I love it) And because Brad’s now into fourth bullets… (Brad: It’s happening) If you’re wanting the chairs deck, and you didn’t get it during the presale, now is the time to get it. Because… (Brad: now is the time) otherwise, you’re not going to be part of the first rollout. And that means you have to wait. And if we’ve sold out, you have to wait even longer.
Brad Crowell 5:32
Yeah, so I mean, the reality is, we only placed enough of an order for the people who have placed the order with a little bit of a buffer and the and then it might sell out there. So we would love to include your order. When we’re printing everything in round one.
Lesley Logan 5:50
Yeah, so go to OPC. So that’s onlinepilatesclasses.com. If you’re like What the hell is an OPC? Hi, welcome to the podcast. I’m Lesley Logan… (Brad: and I’m Brad Crowell) and OPC is… (Brad: thanks a lot for joining us today) Adrian sorry, that’s all you get, no, onlinepilatesclasses.com is our baby. So go check it out. Okay, before we get into Adrian Stark’s amazing voice and all this amazing content, what do we, do we have an audience question to get to?
Brad Crowell 6:15
We do. And so basically, this is from an OPC member, we have a private Facebook group for the OPC community. And she said, I love the way you theme your workouts and connect exercises together. I really want to understand more about how you do that how you conceptualize that.
Lesley Logan 6:35
Yeah, so actually, like we kind of just talked about it with the workshop… (Brad: Yeah, yeah) But also like, that doesn’t really help you figure out how to do it… (Brad: That’s true) So one of the things that I would love to tell you is the way I do that in less than a 15 minute recap, and I cannot. So the truth is, is that well, how I theme workouts together is because of how I was trained to see the method. And I was trained to see this method. Luckily, I had a lot of amazing teachers in my journey to hear where you’re listening to me now. But one of those was Jay Grimes, Sani Shimoda, who…
Brad Crowell 7:08
We’re still talking Pilates, the Pilates method.
Lesley Logan 7:11
Still talking about the pilates method. Thank you, Brad, for, you know, bringing in Tracy from Wisconsin. So um, so my teachers Jake Grimes, Sandy Shimoda, Karen Fishman, they really helped me, like take everything I knew and like, and take it from being like pieces of information, like, like think things like a solar system, like nine planets, and actually see how they’re all connected by the stars. Right. So, so effectively, I hope that analogy makes sense. So at any rate, they really helped me put that together. And then since that, since I was able to understand that, I put that into my own practice my own teaching. And that’s how OPC was created. Because it was like, how do I make first of all, the classical Pilates method unique every single week? It is I do the same that order? Well, the same order, but it’s an order on the mat and reformer, we just omit exercises that don’t fit the theme or the time. But how do I do that? And so I started really honing that skill set in and really making it fun and, and what you experience as an OPC member, is it really connected so you can take an exercise that you may not be able to do or one that you struggle with or hate, and really understand it. So how do you do that yourself, I have to be completely honest and tell you you need to be my mentorship because it’s something that’s going to take time. And I need to have, I need to AC where you’re at in your understanding of the method, and in your connection to the practice in your body and how you currently teach. And then help you get like, you could be anywhere on the journey and I need to make sure that we’re on the same page. And then because you might even be doing half of it already, when that’d be amazing. If I go actually you’re halfway there. Here’s some things you could do. Or Hi, that was 1000 words. (…) takes one exercise. So let’s go over here. So I really love my elevate mentorship for exactly this. It helps you see the method as like one exercise you do hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of different ways. And allows you to teach everybody in front of you based on connecting them together and also your own body. So if you want to know how I do this, basically the TLDR is sign up for elevate.
Brad Crowell 9:18
Yeah, join elevate. .. (Lesley: Yeah) okay. Well, thanks for asking that question.
Lesley Logan 9:23
Yeah, you can ask any question you want is my Pilates guys, so last couple of Pilates related. It can actually be life business work or like vacation, whatever it is need to send it into us somewhere on the interwebs not LinkedIn. I’m not over there. But you know, someplace that I can actually find it. And I’ll put it on here.
Brad Crowell 9:39
Stick around. Right to this we’re gonna talk about how Adrian Starks shares the Greatest Journey is the journey inward
Lesley Logan 9:45
Right after these messages we’ll be right back.
Brad Crowell 11:21
Okay, now let’s talk about Adrienne Starks. Adrian Starks is a man who decided to begin living on this planet for three reasons to learn, to grow, and then to take action. He is fully living his purpose driven life and inspires others to do the same as a speaker, narrator, entrepreneur and writer.
Lesley Logan 12:09
Yeah. So I actually want to jump in first, because I really enjoyed his first step in discovering your purpose, because I just, you know, we’ve always had, we’re like, what’s my purpose? Why am I here on this planet, like walking around? Like they may not know. And he said that he the history said, I’m gonna quote him, the greatest journey is a journey inward. And he said, you also have to acknowledge you don’t know everything, but then start asking why. And we talked about like, the seven why’s like why this? Why this? Why this, like, Why do I want to be a writer? Because that’s why do I want to do that? Because that’s why do i Why, why, why. And like, we talked about…
Brad Crowell 12:44
If you’re, if you’re trying to discover your purpose, right? Like, why are you here doing what is it that you’re supposed to be doing? Why are you here on this planet? Right? And when he started asking himself that he realized he could help other people discover their own purpose, right? And so he his pod is called your purpose, your purpose for life. Right? And so anyway, in order for you to feel fulfilled and excited about, you know, showing up for life, it really will change your excitement, enthusiasm about it, if you find purpose in the thing that you’re doing, right? So, you know, it’s so interesting to me, because when I was younger, I was part of a coaching group. And the one of the guys said to me, I don’t care, I don’t care what it is, I have to do, if I have to carry shit from one corner of the room to the other corner and put it down, but after doing it for so many times, it’s going to allow me to live, you know, take care of my family the way I want to, I’m willing to do that thing. And I really adopted that. And I was like, Oh, it doesn’t matter if I fucking hate showing up for my job. I’m doing this because this is going to allow me to do the thing that I really would rather be doing, which is whatever, touring in music and doing all the band thing. And after doing that approach for decades, I decided I don’t like that approach anymore. Because…
Lesley Logan 14:12
Thank God, I was like where’s this going.
Brad Crowell 14:14
I really don’t like it because because you know what, I ended up working at a shitty job, working with shitty people. And I told myself, I’m just gonna stick it out because by doing this shitty job, I’m gonna be setting myself up to go do something really amazing. And my thought is, listen, there are times in your life when you have to do stuff you don’t want to do? sure, I get that, but what if the thing you have to do your job you actually love? What if you find purpose in that thing? How amazing would that be? Can it be possible for them to be overlaying that you’re living the life that you like you’re doing something that you love, and you’re getting paid for it in a way that will empower you to go do the other things that you love to do, then you can have so much more fun in life.
Lesley Logan 14:57
Yeah. I’m so glad that that turned around. I was like…
Brad Crowell 15:03
You should have seen her face if you’re on YouTube. She’s looking at me and her heads tilted to the side like the puppy dogs like: what are you doing?
Lesley Logan 15:12
Not to say that if you are shoveling shit that your job is without purpose because the person who picks up our dog poop, I am sure feels very purposeful, and what they chose to do for themselves. And I’m very grateful.
Brad Crowell 15:23
So that was my point is like every it’s it wasn’t fulfilling me the things that I was doing. They weren’t doing they weren’t lighting my fire. They weren’t something that I’m excited abou, passionate about, like amazing at… (Lesley: Yeah) those kinds of things. I was just doing them because I had a job opportunity… (Lesley: Yeah) that could get me paid… (Lesley: Yeah) that’s not enough.
Lesley Logan 15:41
Yeah. So you know, like, I love that. I’m really glad that you didn’t adopt that. It’s probably when we met. You probably stopped.
Brad Crowell 15:50
Yeah, well, it was. It was. I mean, I don’t know. I think it was like, it was it was a combination of the of me leaving the music industry. Because I was betting on that to be the thing that got me out of the shit.
Lesley Logan 16:05
Yeah. And then, oh, I remember this, and you left the music thing. And you’re like, well, now I’m here… (Brad: Yeah, now I’m just fucking here) not playing music, because like, this isn’t (…). So Oh, yeah. No, it was definitely them.
Brad Crowell 16:16
Yeah, it was exactly when we met too. So there’s that that was 100% a part of it. But, but really, like, I thought, you know, I’m gonna sell a million records, and I’m just gonna go tour the world. And then all of a sudden, when my band stopped, I was like, Oh now what?
Lesley Logan 16:30
Yeah. Like, so I worked retail. I really thought I was gonna work in retail forever. Because I really love the company I worked for at the time we had we sold the most amazing stuff. And it’s not because I love to sell the vibe purpose on this planet was help people sell. What I loved was helping people find the thing that made them leave the store the smile on their face, or like they had the gift for someone like I loved helping people, like people, you know, people when you’re shopping, imagine, think about last minute shopping, oftentimes you’re shopping for like, it’s like, what do they call it, like retail therapy. And like they come in, and then I help them find this thing that would like light them up, or make them feel like their selves or like jewelry is like an expression of them. And so I found present now I work with a ton of people who are like this is how I pay my bills, and I can tell you right now, it doesn’t matter how amazing that salesperson was, they were never the number one salesperson. They’re never the number one because they were just piling up the shit from one corner to the other. So clearly, like whatever you’re doing, try to figure out how it aligns with the purpose that you have on this life, or let’s find a way to help you bridge the gap… (Brad: Yeah) What did you love?
Brad Crowell 17:32
I love it. Alright, so one thing he started talking about was how, you know, now that you’re asking why, you know, why am I here? What do I love? Why am I why do I like doing this? Why do I like to know, you know, and kind of going towards your purpose. He said, how you create, you need to create space and be purposeful. And the creating of the space allows you to be curious, okay, and that curiosity really opened up the opportunity to make mistakes in, you know, and to grow and learn and be better at what it is that we’re doing. And, again, dial in, hone in, you know, being more purposeful in our life. And, and he actually gave a challenge, he said, Be curious enough to make a mistake, because a lot of people are unwilling to take any risk, unwilling to make any mistakes. But he was giving this really great analogy about Babe Ruth, and it wasn’t Mickey Mantle, he referenced somebody… (Lesley: no, somebody else) can’t remember now, but he said they actually have more strikeouts than they did homeruns even though they were, you know, the number they were top of the top of the homerun stats… (Lesley: yes). But they failed so many times. Right. And, and then I thought you asked a really great question of like, well, how do you, you know, how do you set yourself up to be curious? And he said, Oh, by being alone. And it was like, well, that’s interesting, very interesting. So he figured out how to leave his mind the mental space to be curious, by setting aside time for himself… (Lesley: Yeah) You know.
Lesley Logan 19:20
This is, this is, that right there is the problem most people have, they do not create space for new stuff. So they could they it doesn’t even matter if you know what your purpose is. If you have not created the time. I don’t care if it’s 15 minutes. I don’t care if it’s 2% of your day.
Brad Crowell 19:38
Yeah. Dai Manuel.
Lesley Logan 19:41
If you don’t do that, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t none of the stuff that we’re telling you matters. None of it does. And too often I see people go must be nice. I wish I could do this when I have more time. I’m telling you right now, you will never stop being the busyness that you are until you create the time for your purpose. And until you start actually like owning that and protecting that and is going to require being alone and I know my extroverts are like: don’t wanna be alone. But you Brad also when you take time to go for a walk by yourself, you come up with so many ideas. But if you’re like on phone calls all day, on your socials all the time, hang up people all the time.
Brad Crowell 20:20
Listening to podcasts all day long.
Lesley Logan 20:23
Let your let your your let things be silent, you know. So anyways, I thought that was one of the most amazing answers loved It’s so fucking much.
Brad Crowell 20:31
Well, he talks about he’s shared a lot of his story about like school, middle school, high school and being alone and working in the library and stuff. And it actually made me think about that time. And also about my time in college, when I was intentionally writing music all the time. And I had in my calendar, don’t call Brad. Brad is writing, right? And I have intentional time, to be creative, to be curious, to learn, to try new things, to flop at new songs, all that kind of stuff. And when I was in high school, I remember I always wanted to be part of like the group. But I remember actually, like I would, I would walk I would walk home. And it was like 30 minutes. But I would take different routes and I would explore and try new things and know the curiosity like can I walk through this neighborhood to get to where I’m trying to go. And that that alone time, you know, I didn’t have a, I think I might have had a diskman in high school, but not really. So I didn’t have something to distract me.
Lesley Logan 21:37
You’re gonna have to explain it what a diskman was just in case somebody is listening to this.
Brad Crowell 21:42
If you were born in the 90s you don’t know what a diskman is because you never needed to use one. A diskman is a CD player that is portable. That’s all.
Lesley Logan 21:51
You know, you just made me think of remember when when I left working for the fitness company. And I no longer had to commute from West Hollywood to the west side, which is by the way… (Brad: right) three miles, y’all
Brad Crowell 22:02
But it was like 30 to 45 minutes
Lesley Logan 22:04
30 45 minutes, and in those 30 to 45 minutes, you could rarely get me on the phone. I literally just enjoyed I had a jeep with the top off. And even in the winter, I just blast the heat. And I drove through the streets of Beverly Hills, like like I mean it was beautiful picture as everything you see from a clueless when she’s walking and clueless like literally that. And then I went from just like driving from our house to the studio, which is one mile and I could take the side streets. So I was there in four minutes, unless I hit this one stoplight, and then it was seven, but still, like no time at all. And I remember and I come home and you would have been working from home all day and you’re like ready to talk. And I’m like, Ah, I haven’t been alone. And like, so I ended up we got rid of the Jeep. So I could walk home. I could walk home. And it was a 15 to 20 minute walk depend on how fast I went. And it was the perfect time for my brain for me to be alone to think about thing. And that’s where I actually going back to those seven layers of why the first time I could get all the way to number seven was on a walk. Because I could actually like go and I could get past number seven because I wasn’t around. It wasn’t in my surroundings of our house or my work. I was like walking with the squirrels and all this stuff. So anyways, highly recommend get some time by yourself.
Brad Crowell 23:22
Yeah, I think that’s great. And for you especially, it’s really a way for you to energize or re energize… (Lesley: Yeah) You know, for me, I think like I have, I actually really struggle with it because I have a hard time. Like, like, it’s hard. The story that I’ve told myself about alone time and not doing anything is that I’m not being efficient, and I’m wasting time. And I think that we need to combat that concept of I’m wasting time because the time your brain needs space and like little distraction, to be creative. And that creativity that sparks curiosity that allows you to come up with different ideas, you know, and, uh, you know, time after time, I’ve realized I fill every second of my day with, you know, if I’m literally like doing the dishes, I’m also listening to a podcast or maybe I’ve got a show on or something. Or if I’m going for a walk, I’m often again listening to a book or listening to a pod. And I don’t leave myself time just to let my mind percolate. You know… (Lesley: yeah) and it’s not wasting time. It’s important.
Lesley Logan 24:30
No, it’s important and 2% of your day is enough time, which is 30 minutes.
Brad Crowell 24:36
All right, so finally let’s talk about those Be It action items what bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your convo with Adrian Starks.
Lesley Logan 24:58
I’m going first again. It is my show. All right, here we go. Get curious, question people, question yourself and I don’t, I think when people think question people, question why someone’s, it’s not to be antagonistic, it’s just like, just because you have a thought doesn’t make it a fact. So ask yourself like, oh, like why? Why is that? What? Like question you don’t have to like question authority, or you should, but you don’t have to, like, be antagonistic. It’s just like, if you’ve always done things in one way, ask yourself, if that’s still serving you, ask yourself that you’d be willing to try something different, you know, like, really dive in deep on some of the habits you have, because if they’re not serving you, with time they get rid of them. And we got to get curious about that. First to understand you gotta like test things out in the water. I’m, I love testing out my morning routine, I really do. So you know, and the best way to test is like, get out of your comfort zone and do something different.
Brad Crowell 25:56
Yeah, I do it respectfully. Part of it is something that I wanted to speak to because I was very antagonistic in my youth, about questioning authority, and not in like, I’m not like, you know, throwing rocks and started fights kind of thing, but I would challenge authority intellectually.
Lesley Logan 26:21
You guys he literally did every single assignment in college and never turned it in. Let me just talk about like…
Brad Crowell 26:28
I intentionally got the worst GPA you could possibly get. I failed every class… (Lesley: but he went) I went to all the classes. I wouldn’t take the tests but I would do all the papers in the homework but I just wouldn’t turn them in so I had a really interesting you know, it’s part of my ego I think too for sure… (Lesley: Oh, you think) but but you know, the questioning people, questioning myself, you know, questioning authority that all of that really does roll into curiosity.
Lesley Logan 27:05
Well, there’s yeah, there’s there’s definitely been like, like curiosity is like being a detective versus like a judge.
Brad Crowell 27:11
Yeah, we’re being a dick about it. You know?
Lesley Logan 27:14
Be a detective not a dick. Thats the new merch. I’m a detective not a dick.
Brad Crowell 27:25
I love it man.
Lesley Logan 27:28
Brad Crowell 27:29
We’ll have to put that on like a like I don’t know if that’s I don’t know what that goes.
Lesley Logan 27:33
It’s like a sticker. It’s sticker related, it’s a bumper sticker for someone’s car but not mine. Because I don’t put them on the car. But we could put it on the Yeti. Um you know how at the gym people write on the walls… (Brad: Oh yeah) Oh my god some of that makes me so “no pain no gain”, “sweat is just pain leaving the body” like I’m just gonna put be a detective not a dick, x x LL, Be It Till You See It. Anyways, you guys I think Adrian episode was just full of so many things. And so to sum it all up, get curious, question people, question yourself and let us know how you enjoyed this. Let us know what parts of this were really spoke to you and what you’re gonna do about it and… (Brad: Let us know if you loved Adrian’s voice) and how it’s gonna help you have a purposeful life. And also you can listen to Adrian’s voice on, for free, on his podcast, wherever podcasts are at your purposeful life. And so he has amazing guests that he puts up all the time. He’s so intentional, and… (Brad: you were on there, right?) I was on there. We had a debate. We had great sweatshirt action. We both showed up in a gray sweatshirt. It was really funny. I’m like I’m going to wear a gray sweatshirt today. And I sit down he’s like I had a feeling you would wear a gray sweatshirt… (Brad: you got the memo) Okay, I don’t even never wear a gray sweatshirt on it. Like normally I try to like look good. Anyway, go to this podcast you can you can start with my episode and see if you enjoy the theme of his podcast which I think you will if you enjoyed this episode. So until next time, Be It Till You See It. Share it with friends and we’ll hopefully see you around soon.
Brad Crowell 29:08
Bye for now.
That’s all I’ve got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over on IG at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us help others to BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!
‘Be It Till You See It’ is a production of ‘Bloom Podcast Network’.
It’s written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.
Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.
Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.
Special thanks to our designer Mesh Herico for creating all of our visuals, (which you can’t see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all the video each week, so you can.
And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each episode, so you can find it on our website. And finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.
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Join Lesley and Alice as they discuss the essence of daily happiness, the art of nurturing joy, the role of perspective, and the significance of human balance, all while navigating life confidently...
Lesley embarks on a profound journey from the captivating wonders of Cambodia to the relatable challenges faced after travels. Learn the importance of celebrating both big and small wins in the que...
Brad and Lesley offer a fresh take on Kelli Adame’s relationship coaching techniques. Discover the nuances of masculine and feminine energies, the essence of setting boundaries, and the pitfalls ...