Advice for Moving Forward After Betrayal

Ep. 350 with Lesley & Brad

“Even in your kindness or most thought-out ways of doing things you can accidentally make someone feel betrayed.”

Lesley Logan

Follow and subscribe for free

Lesley Logan - Author, Mindset Coach, and Fitness Guru Google Play
Lesley Logan - Author, Mindset Coach, and Fitness Guru Apples Podcasts
Lesley Logan - Author, Mindset Coach, and Fitness Guru Spotify account

Click to read more about:       Lesley Logan       Brad Crowell


Show Notes

Betrayal leaves deep wounds, but it also opens the door to profound personal transformation. In this powerful episode, Lesley Logan and Brad Crowell recap Dr. Debi Silber’s episode, discussing the intentional nature of betrayal, its impact on our lives, and the deliberate steps needed to heal. Listeners will find solace, understanding, and strategies for setting better boundaries and to prevent repeated betrayals.

If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at [email protected].

And as always, if you’re enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at

In this episode you will learn about:

  • Addressing concerns about insufficient teacher training and alternative learning paths.
  • The personal impact of betrayal and its distinct nature from other traumas.
  • How betrayal can be a catalyst for personal growth and transformation.
  • Overview of the process and stages involved in recovering from betrayal.
  • The importance of establishing strong boundaries to prevent future betrayals.

Episode References/Links:

Lesley Logan: She said time heals all wounds but that does not apply to betrayal. And she said healing needs to be deliberate and intentional. Like you actually have to be deliberate and intentional with your hea


Lesley Logan
Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I’m Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I’ve trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it’s the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It’s a practice, not a perfect. Let’s get started.


Lesley Logan 0:49
Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co-host in life, Brad, and I are going to dig into the transformative convo I had with Dr. Debi Silber in our last episode. If you haven’t yet listened to the interview, feel free to pause this now. Go back and listen to that one and then come back and join us. Holy freaking moly. We have never had a topic on betrayal. Nope. First time and not only do we will talk about betrayal, but she is the leading doctor on betrayal. She has so much scientific information you guys if you

Brad Crowell 0:57
TED talks, education from stage, workshops. She’s an institute.

Lesley Logan 1:23
If anyone in your life is like act like reacting to being betrayed in their life and other things that they’re doing and they keep going well, I had this extra do this thing. Holy fricking moly, send them the episode. It was so informative, so good. And it’s like, it’s I mean, we’ll get we’ll get into it in a second. Anyways, today is April 4th, and it’s School Librarian Day. Okay. Of course we’re gonna highlight this day because we’re all about the books on this podcast. So about this day, the day is observed to recognize the professionals who keep school libraries well-stocked in the books in perfect order. School librarians, I’m just gonna say, also librarians, if you’re a public school public librarian this is you too, your school librarians spend long hours keeping the library organized, they also, they’re also likely to be the first people to help students find the resources they need to learn. Pause. Yes, so many librarians I’ve heard on the news in the last year are the only safe person to suggest books to a lot of people. Anyways, they also encourage students pursue reading outside of academic text. School librarians are also responsible for creating an environment where students are motivated to learn. Their work is truly an accomplishment. With that said, if you didn’t already know this, in 2024 OPC is supporting the nonprofit organization the Wheat Penny press and their program Little Readers Big Change along with Be It podcast, Rebekah Borucki, who runs it with every dollar spent so all you OPC members out there just know that you are part of providing free and low-cost books programming and funding for the creative arts to our most vulnerable communities and their most talented members. Thank you for being an OPC member and thank you for supporting reading. And we had Danny Brassel on who talked about like how he helps kids want to read and it’s about giving them books that they actually want to read.

Brad Crowell 3:06
That was a fun episode.

Lesley Logan 3:07
I know. With Nick Hutchison coming up soon it’s gonna be about how The Rise of the Reader.

Brad Crowell 3:13
Jake Kelfer.

Lesley Logan 3:13
Well, Jake Kelfer is for the writers.

Brad Crowell 3:15
Yeah, but, books.

Lesley Logan 3:16
And then, Nick is actually you’re gonna learn how to retain what you’re reading. Danny Brassel helps you get your kids reading and Rebekah Borucki who was recently a guest holy freaking moly, she is making sure that what we’re reading is like making change. So.

Brad Crowell 3:31
Pretty rad.

Lesley Logan 3:32
You guys.

Brad Crowell 3:32
Well, anyway, a sincere heartfelt thank you to all the OPC members out there. We love being able to donate to different causes. And we change, each year we pick a new cause and we get to donate throughout the year. And so we’re really fired up to be supporting Little Readers Big Change along with you.

Lesley Logan 3:54
Along with you. And you know, like support your local library. Brad’s cousin is a librarian and she is like, all about like, getting me on Libby getting me to go get my library card and all that stuff. So like, support the libraries, they’re really amazing and it’s just, you know, look, you don’t need to scroll so much. So anyway, okay.

Brad Crowell 4:14
Read a book.

Lesley Logan 4:15
This afternoon. So if you happen to listen to this in the morning, when it drops, you can still sign up for the Studio Growth Accelerator which is for Pilates teachers and studio owners who are ready to make some changes in their business and who want to learn and also work on your business. So you’re going to get information and integrate it.

Brad Crowell 4:32
We’re going to be running through the proprietary Accel formula. A-C-C-E- L. Short for accelerator, y’all. Basically, we’re going to we’re going to really dig into how do you bring new clients in, how do you work with those clients to make them champions for your business so that they go out into the world and share your business with their relationships and it’s going to be amazing. So if you’re looking to jumpstart the growth of your studio, this is a great way to do it. Join me this afternoon there will be a three-day replay and if you missed it that’s okay if you listen to this late, just DM us because you know we’ll get you on the waitlist for the next time. The next one. Okay?

Lesley Logan 5:19
And if you listen to last week’s episode you understand that spelling accelerator is two Cs, one O.

Brad Crowell 5:24
Hence the Accel…

Lesley Logan 5:26
Well excel you could spell with an E

Brad Crowell 5:28
…programs. No, no. That’s excel. This is accel. A-C-C-E-L-E-R-A-T-O-R. Well.

Lesley Logan 5:35
Okay. Summer Camp. Okay, so I was, the time we tell the team when we’re designing summer camp I’m like think American hot summer like, get like look up.

Brad Crowell 5:46
What is it? What? Hot American Summer (inaudible).

Lesley Logan 5:48
I was like, look up look at what Christopher Maloney is wearing. I want Brad to dress like that for the Zoom calls. Like I want people to have hot shorts. I want Elizabeth Banks like I

Brad Crowell 5:59
Bradley Cooper was in there.

Lesley Logan 6:00
Everybody who was in this show. (inaudible) I want, so here’s the thing, the way I see summer camp for OPC is all the best parts of summer camp without the bunks, bunk beds.

Brad Crowell 6:13
Without the bugs.

Lesley Logan 6:14
Without the bugs, without the travel.

Brad Crowell 6:16
Without the mean girls.

Lesley Logan 6:18
Without the mean girls or the weird people or you know the shit food. So you can wear whatever you want, you can be off camera if you want, you can actually sign up and watch it later because you’ll have lifetime access to the replays. But you do want

Brad Crowell 6:32
That’s a big event for us, y’all. This is not like two workshops. This is going to be like potentially like all-day events, two days in a row.

Lesley Logan 6:39
It could be like, we’re looking at potentially up to 14 or 16 events in two days.

Brad Crowell 6:45

Lesley Logan 6:46
We’ve been planning this for over a year because y’all loved summer camp so much last year, we had like the best time with summer camp. And so we are actually promoting early because we want as many people to be able to do summer camp with us. I’m like I want camp counselor shirts. I want the whole thing. So The reason why we want you on the waitlist even though you’re like, Lesley, (inaudible) later. Correct. But if you’re on the waitlist, you get the second-best prices of the early bird. The people who get the best best prices are those OPC members who are helping Little Readers Big Change. So, you want to be an OPC member to get the best earlybird. Second best is the workshop waitlist. Third best is hearing from the public. And fourth best is full price.

Brad Crowell 7:29
Fourth best, fourth best.

Lesley Logan 7:31
Okay. Also, Cambodia. As you mentioned in last week’s episode, Brad. Brad thinks it’s sold out. It’s possible that it’s sold out by now because it’s April 4th, but we did schedule already and pick our dates for February 2025. Holy fricking moly, it’s gonna be so fun. Like I said last week, best sunrises are in the February time and it’s just before the weather gets hot. So you want to go to, to snag your early bird rate for February 2025.

Brad Crowell 8:07
Yeah, join us it’s gonna be amazing. I am so excited.

Lesley Logan 8:11
I’m so excited. Oh my gosh, our October retreat, the people who are coming on this are freaking so excited. One of our girls is coming for the second year in a row. We’ve, because we’ve made some changes and like it’s so fun. And we’ve got some eLevate members coming. We’ve got some OPC members coming. We’ve got some people we’ve never met coming and it’s just gonna be a freaking blast.

Brad Crowell 8:29
It’s going to be amazing.

Lesley Logan 8:28
So amazing. So, if you are wanting to come, if you’re like Lesley when are you doing a retreat somewhere else? I don’t have the time. I want to go there. And you can join at my house, come to my house. I would love to do a retreat somewhere else but I’m just going to tell you right now, the amount of work that goes into putting the retreat on that is an amazing, unforgettable experience is something you I can never express I could never actually share. And so while I would love to do a retreat somewhere else, I also would love one, of the reasons we did Cambodia retreat is because I think it’s really, really important to see places in the world you might never see and a lot of places where people go on retreats just feel like a like America-like. And I really enjoy so immersing myself in a culture that’s so uniquely different than my own. And seeing things that like it’s just takes you out of your normal routine. You’re 12 hours to 15 hours ahead. So like you are just really out of your routine. It’s not the same timezone as your family like, I really love to get out and just be in a, in the village like being around other people and how the world is so different there.

Brad Crowell 9:15
It’s a transformational experience. I mean, I truly believe that when we have the opportunity to experience cultures that are not our own. It changes our perspective in a way that allows us to be more empathetic, more kind to others, more excited for other people, because they’re people too, doing life the way they do life and it’s different than the way that we do life but it allows this polarization that’s happening in our, you know, in American society about others, like, you know, those other people, they’re bad or something. You know, it allows you to see another culture in a way that is like, whoa, totally different than how we do things. But they’re fucking great people, too.

Brad Crowell 9:35
Oh, yeah. I mean, it also helps you vote with others in mind. Just a thought. Okay. So go do that. Come with us. Okay. And don’t forget.

Brad Crowell 10:36
If you love a good challenge and you’re looking for one that’s a four-weeker.

Lesley Logan 10:40
You want to do my challenges. Come on, guys. The reformer challenge and mat challenge are available anytime. Which, I’m telling you, this is your prompt to sign up now. At Just pick the challenge you want. They are, it’s the first week’s 10 minutes, the second week’s, 20 minutes. The third week is 30 minutes. And the fourth biggest (inaudible), 40 minutes. You see how that goes.

Brad Crowell 11:01
Is that how it works?

Lesley Logan 11:02
Yeah. And so, I want you to all do it, I want you to have some fun. I want you to get it out of your head and into your body. I want you to do it imperfectly. I had someone say, Ah, this is too fast. And I said, Great. Do it slower and just skip half the exercises. It’s not about being perfect, you don’t have to look like me. You don’t have to do it like me, I even tell you to replace what you can’t do with what you can. Pilates is the thing that helps you realize like how you talk and treat yourself. You are allowed to be imperfect and to be in process. And that’s what this challenge is all about. It’s super fun to learn how to do habits while doing it. So,

Brad Crowell 11:36
Yeah. And you can pick either the mat or the reformer. How about that?

Lesley Logan 11:39
How about that?

Brad Crowell 11:40
Alright. So we had an audience question. And it was from Michelle. She said hi, I’m in a teacher training program that doesn’t feel like it’s giving me enough information and I’d love to learn from more from you about how to teach. Is OPC your only option?

Lesley Logan 11:57

Brad Crowell 11:57
And I just want to say first off, I’m sorry that you’re in a program that isn’t meeting your needs. And clearly, as a student, if you’re going what the hell I expected more. That sucks.

Lesley Logan 12:08
Yeah, so it sucks. I got this from our customer service team. And first of all, this is exactly why I wrote my book Profitable Pilates: Everything But the Exercises. And the unfortunate thing is, I don’t think as many people get it before they choose a program. They get it after they choose a program. So I’ll work on that. But a lot of programs have a lot to be (inaudible). And it’s also just want to say to any teacher trainees listening, it is not totally your fault. In fact, it’s probably not even your fault. You might be doing someone else’s program. But the other thing is, is like we are an unregulated industry, the Pilates industry is unregulated, meaning that your massage therapist, do you all know, if you’re living in the States, your nail technician had to take a state exam, like literally had to take a state exam for you to complain about a $15 pedicure, they had to take a state exam. And in the Pilates industry, there is an organization that has created an exam so you can be truly certified. But there’s no, there’s no regulation in this country. And that means people can create a training program. And there’s something great about that you could just create a training program if you want one, and you need teachers. But when there’s regulations, there are things like refund policies, there are ways that you can complain about the company, you can be treated with respect, they can’t abuse you, things like that. So a lot of programs do have a lot (inaudible). And here’s the other reason. Even if it’s the best program in the world, when you’re a new teacher, you cannot learn as much as you think. It’s so much information.

Brad Crowell 13:43
It’s overwhelm.

Lesley Logan 13:43
It is so much information, which is why everyone ends up doing a second training, which yes means you spend more money. So look, I really do feel free, Michelle, I love this question. You’re not the only person to ask me something similar in the exact same week. So here’s the deal. OPC is not the only option to learn from me, but OPC is the most affordable option. So I teach at least half the classes on OPC every single month. And we have themes. And if you like seeing how I connect exercises to exercises, take class with me. That’s how it works. And guess what, take class with other teachers on OPC. They do the exact same, too and they do it with different body types. And that is so important. So please, please, please and $79 a month is not cheap, but it’s not expensive. And if you are a teacher, it’s a write-off. You can put it as your education.

Brad Crowell 14:30
Education and training, y’all.

Lesley Logan 14:32
So all the more reason to not be a sole profit, that’s a different story. If you are wanting more you’re actually wanting to learn with me. Right? There’s a from and there’s a with. That would be eLevate, which is our mentorship program. As we were recording this, we just wrapped day one of weekend two. It’s another investment. I’m gonna be really honest. It is another investment that’s on purpose. I want you to show up for you. And I only want to have 12 people in a group. So in order to dedicate over all the five weekends and tons of calls and all the time on one-on-one calls with you, it is an investment, but it is an option. So you can go to to get on the waitlist, we’re probably going to open up applications for 2025 really soon. And we’re really excited we have so many people who want 2025, we’ll probably open up applications. And then based on who applies and who gets accepted, we will pick the times of the days we already have the weekends picked because we have the retreat picked. But I just want to say to anyone listening to this, Pilates teacher who just feels like their first training program didn’t teach them enough. Let’s just let it go. Just let it go. Just pretend that they did the best they can with what they had. You did the best you could with what you had. And that and just know that I did three training programs. So there you go.

Brad Crowell 15:50
There you go.

Lesley Logan 15:53
And it’s because you can only take in so much. And then you have to go teach and you realize what doesn’t work and you teach again, anyways.

Brad Crowell 16:03
Well, Michelle, thanks for asking that. If you have a question for us. Just reach out, you can DM us on the pod on Instagram, you can hit up our Customer Support Chat. You can text us, all the things, however you want to reach out. Just ping us and you know, we might include your question on the pod. Okay, let’s talk about Dr. Debi Silber. Debi Silber PhD, founder of the PBT Institute, a Pilates expertise in health and personal developments, to her innovative Post Betrayal Transformation Program. Drawing on her own experiences and extensive research, she has developed groundbreaking strategies for overcoming and fully healing from betrayal. And her groundbreaking strategies that she came up with, they went viral, like it was like a big deal. Like boom, that’s what like really allowed her to shift into this role, you know, full-time.

Lesley Logan 16:58
I, when I heard about her, I was like, Oh my God. We have to talk about this because I think we talked about other things that are around relationships, family, grief, all these other things, sex, all this stuff. But betrayal, I mean, and so maybe some of those episodes, you should go back and listen to after hearing this because if you have experienced betrayal

Brad Crowell 17:19
Puts a different lens on.

Lesley Logan 17:20
You may have hated what they said.

Brad Crowell 17:24

Lesley Logan 17:25
Anyways, Okay, my turn.

Brad Crowell 17:26

Lesley Logan 17:27
One of the things I love is that we actually talked about how betrayal is a different type of trauma than death, disease or natural disaster. And I think it’s easy to put betrayal in kind of like those same experiences of trauma. But she says it feels intentional snd we take it personally. And our entire

Brad Crowell 17:44
Betrayal feels intentional.

Lesley Logan 17:45
Yes, it feels intentional. And sometimes it might not even be, it might be all about them. But probably is, but our entire self gets shattered and requires rebuilding. She said rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthyness and trust, these are all demolished and have to be rebuilt. So if you have been betrayed, and you just feel like you are left, like, like an open wound and just shattered, you have and it’s, it’s not like you just rebuild a house or you like you just start dating someone else, or you go through a grieving process and remember them on special days, like it’s, can be really difficult.

Brad Crowell 17:46
Yeah, well, she talks about her five phases, which, you know, the best thing to do is to go back through, we’re going to cover, we’re going to cover four of the five phases a little bit later on in the pod. But, you know, she said something really interesting. She said, you don’t outgrow betrayal. Like it’s and she has the scientific proof to demonstrate that.

Lesley Logan 18:56
Meaning if like you were (inaudible).

Brad Crowell 18:58
Time doesn’t heal all.

Lesley Logan 18:59
And you feel like you’re betrayed by your parents. You know, just like become an adult and you’re good.

Lesley Logan 19:04
Right, right. She was specifically talking about grief and time and the way that we talk about that societaly.

Lesley Logan 19:11
She especially said time, she said time heals all wounds, but does not, that does not apply to betrayal. And she said healing needs to be deliberate and intentional. Like you actually have to be deliberate and intentional with your healing.

Brad Crowell 19:23
Yeah, the you know, and so what’s great is that she also has a process, she goes through, like, how does that happen? How do you do that? Right, but I just found that really, really intriguing because she’s not just talking about divorce, you know, she could be talking about family, parents, siblings, best friends, you know.

Lesley Logan 19:44
It could be a coworker.

Brad Crowell 19:45
Yeah. She actually talked about her, your boss, and I was like, wow, that’s crazy. I didn’t even realize that, you know, I’ve been definitely betrayed at work in my old job and I was really hurt by that. You know, but I today like, you know, a couple years later, I just didn’t even think about it until let’s say this conversation, I was like, oh my god, that was me too. You know, so I, you know, there’s a lot of context for betrayal in our lives. And she said, the amount of betrayal really depends on how close you are to the person on how close how much you allow them to weigh into your life.

Lesley Logan 20:22
I agree. Because like, if you’re betrayed by a coworker, that you saw Monday through Friday, a little bit each day, that is going to be hard and shattering. But if you switch jobs or get them out of your life, it’s different than like a spouse or a parent because like they’re, it’s interesting, like I was listening to something recently, where if, like, certain breakups can feel so hard, because it’s not that you’re grieving the break up of the past, but also the future that you had with them. And if a betrayal is someone where there’s a future that you had seen yourself going down with them, you discussed with them. That is also, that’s part of the shatter that you’re going through, because your future has also changed. What you thought was possible has changed.

Brad Crowell 21:13
Yeah. Yeah, that’s a that’s a really fascinating point as well. You know.

Lesley Logan 21:21
Now that I think about it, I feel like maybe there are people in my life who thinks I betrayed them, too. So now, I just felt like a little bit of a dick. It wasn’t on purpose. I hope they don’t think that but anyway, you know, I’m thinking about the person like what the way I, I don’t think I always say like, I don’t really think I did a great job breaking up with my ex, because I never broken up with anyone. And like, I’m sure they felt very betrayed in that moment. And I didn’t know like, I was just like, no, we’re just breaking up because I don’t think we love each other that much. And one of the ways that I wanted to make sure that they didn’t feel betrayed was like, I went through with the court proceedings we had against a family member of theirs, and I pretended to still be together. But I’m sure that felt like a massive betrayal to them, you know. And so now I think back, like, no wonder they were so shattered. And, you know, when that was all over, so I think it’s really interesting. Like, it’s even in your kindness, or most thought-out ways of doing things you can accidentally make someone feel betrayed.

Lesley Logan 21:22
That’s interesting. I definitely hadn’t thought of that. I mean, for me, it was the other way around.

Lesley Logan 21:35
I mean, you’re so perfect, Brad, you’ve not even betrayed anyone.

Brad Crowell 22:30
I sure have.

Lesley Logan 22:31
I mean, you did quit your own band.

Brad Crowell 22:34
That’s betrayal. That totally is, you know, like, we, that’s true. And that’s a good way, that’s a good thing to point out. And like, I wasn’t trying to let down who’s one of the people in my life, who was one of my best friends, you know, and we still, you know, but also, like, I’ve had business relationships go bad. I’ve had, you know, just life, right? Life’s life is what we like to say. But still, no matter what the circumstance is, there is a sense of betrayal that can be felt by one party or the other, whether it’s as dramatic as a breakup or a divorce. Or as you know, you know, like, hey, this, this program is over, I’m out, and then the person is no longer in your life anymore.

Lesley Logan 23:15
Well, it’s also interesting, okay, off-topic, but like, I’m just also thinking, like, for some of the things where I am, like thinking back, like maybe they felt very betrayed by me in that same moment, I also felt very betrayed by them. So it’s so fascinating how it could be like, an equal betrayed experience.

Brad Crowell 23:33
Well, yeah, I think I think that’s.

Lesley Logan 23:34
Now you have our back and it’s (inaudible) explain that.

Brad Crowell 23:37
Well, I think it’s important to point that out, right? Like, because there’s a reason that you chose to leave that relationship. And it was because promises were made and not kept. And so sure, it totally makes sense that you would also feel betrayed in that moment, which then was betrayal enough to cause you to take action, right? We’re gonna talk about this. I’ll talk about what I really loved about her after I say this with my you know, when my ex and I got a divorce, and then you and I started dating. The story that we’ve put out there is that I broke up with you two times. I mean, I literally did this so it’s it’s not a not a fake story. But we told everyone, we shared that I broke up with you twice and.

Lesley Logan 24:17
People hate when we tell the story. They get so mad at Brad.

Brad Crowell 24:20
They get so mad at me.

Lesley Logan 24:21
They get so mad but he doesn’t share.

Brad Crowell 24:23
Well, I don’t really share I wait till a certain point in the story to talk about why I did that for dramatic effect. But the reality of it is when you’re listening to last episode and you’re talking about the different stages that you know of moving through betrayal you know that Dr. Silber has created, I was almost stuck in one phase and that phase was like it was a keeping me where I was and I was operating out of fear and the fear was effectively I felt so betrayed so hurt by my ex, that I was almost unwilling to ever even put myself in the position again, to be betrayed in that manner. Right? Which is why when things started to get real, I was like, I got to get the fuck out. Like, I can’t handle this, this is too much for me. I can’t do it. I don’t want to be hurt that way again. Right? And so I’ve never really thought of my divorce as betrayal. That term never came into my mind. But thinking about it now, I definitely felt betrayed.

Lesley Logan 25:31
I mean, also, I think so. Because I think that like, how could you not feel betrayed? You thought you guys would be together forever. Like, there’s a lot. There’s, I mean, I think like, anyone who hears your story would go, Oh, my God, I felt so betrayed, which is why they stop hating you at that point in the story and start loving you.

Brad Crowell 25:47
You know, on the introspective side, I wonder if I wonder how she felt betrayed. You know, and I don’t actually.

Lesley Logan 25:55
Okay, so now we have to talk. Okay, Melissa, we have to have Dr. Silber back, because now I need to know if people who are betrayed if the betrayer also felt betrayed, I need the studies.

Brad Crowell 26:06
Yeah, I’m really interested in this.

Lesley Logan 26:07
Melissa are you listening? Does she listen?

Brad Crowell 26:11
Well, okay, so, you know, moving on here. She also, Dr. Silber, Debi, also said she looks at betrayal as an opportunity to completely catapult yourself to a level that you never thought was even possible. And I, you know, she said something really interesting about this, that I, you know, that sounds like, you know, just, you know, polish it up and make it like, you know, look good, feel good, whatever. But she was actually the story that she gave was, she had, she was always talking to herself, like talking down to herself. And, you know, because she would get lost. So she doesn’t, you know, she’s not good at following directions, or whatever, and would like end up someplace and be like, fucking lost again, I’m such an idio. I can’t believe it. What’s wrong with me. Right? And so the story that she’s telling herself is like, you’re bad at this, like, how come you always mess this up? And she reframed that in a way that allowed her to completely catapult herself to a new level that she never thought was possible by shifting the way that she talked to herself and saying, that is just adorable. You did it again. You know, and think about that, like, you’re still probably frustrated with yourself, but you’re not berating yourself and beating yourself up.

Lesley Logan 27:36
Yeah, I think that’s so important. Even if you’ve never been betrayed, like, Guys, we talk about this all the time at OPC, you have to like how you talk to yourself matters. It really does. Forget matters. It can literally change your day from being amazing and feeling happy to like, being depressed. And feel like a failure all the time. Anyways.

Brad Crowell 27:57
Well, I mean, you know, we talk about speaking into existence and be it till you see it. You know, when you reframe the story, you’re telling yourself it, it lends itself to creating an entirely new version of you, right, and then, as you have this positive self-talk and you’re treating yourself with respect, you start to take a look at all the parts of you that you love, and you start to leave behind the things that no longer serve you, right, and then you start to not tolerate that negative part of yourself anymore, and it just shifts you, it changes you. And so, you know, it really, it’s a really interesting, it’s a really interesting idea, and I think it’s worth pursuing you know?

Lesley Logan 28:39
I love it.

Brad Crowell 28:40
Alright, so finally, let’s talk about those Be It Action Items. What bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your convo with Dr. Debi Silber? So she’s talked about these stages. There are five predictable stages. And we didn’t actually apparently cover the fifth stage. So I don’t actually know what that is. But the first four.

Lesley Logan 29:01
Another reason to have Dr. Silber back.

Brad Crowell 29:03
The first four are the four table legs, right? She talks about the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual side of recovering from betrayal. And she said most people focus on the mental and the physical, or actually, I think she said the mental and the emotional. But she said there’s two that people focus on most, they don’t really focus on the other two sides. And so you’re not creating a stable foundation. So that’s stage one. And stage two is shock, trauma and D-Day or discovery day. This is the scariest of all the stages. It’s a breakdown of the body, the mind the worldview, where you’ve gotten this news, you have a stressful response, which leads to you know, basically, chaos right? Chaos in your mind, chaos in life. Step three, then you shift into survival instinct, where you’re grabbing anything or anyone to stay safe and alive. You’re, you shift into practicality. We were referring to it a couple of weeks ago as fifth gear, you know as shit hits the fan, go up into fifth gear, you gotta power through figure it out, you’re, you never leave time for yourself, you’re always operating at this, like, where’s when is the other shoe gonna drop whatever analogy you want to do. And she said, that’s actually the most common place to be stuck in. And that’s so that’s stage three. Stage four is finding and adjusting to the new normal. Right? So now that like, life has shifted, after the chaos and like really the go, go, go of stage three, you know, can you downshift can you get back into stage into a place that isn’t quite as high-strung, intense, anxiety, you know, anxiety-driven, all those kinds of things. She said, most people get stuck in stage three. So that said, going back to our Be It Actions here, she said if you are stuck in stage three, you should write these four questions down. Number one. Am I numbing or avoiding distractions? You need to call yourself on it like call yourself on the walk to the refrigerator when you’re opening the door, even though you’re not hungry. Call yourself on the TV, you know, because you’re desperately trying to drown out other sound the sound of your own thoughts. You know, what are you doing to distract yourself? Is it video games? Is it drinking? Is it? You know, running? Is it? I don’t know what it is, you know. There’s this lots of different opportunities. You know, the second question, what am I trying not to see? What am I trying not to see? Again, call yourself on it, such as that health issue that needs my attention. The relationship issue that I’m avoiding. The job that I absolutely hate, you know, there’s avoidance, right is probably a pretty good indicator. And you know, it’s hard, it’s hard to address these things you’re avoiding. You know, but it’s the thing you’re trying not to see, right? So number three, what is life going to look like in five or 10 years? If I continue to do the actions that I’m currently doing today?

Lesley Logan 32:09
That’s a hard oh my god, oh.

Brad Crowell 32:12
Yeah. You know, like, I think I remember, I remember, when I was going through my divorce, I decided to just start drinking. And, you know, I was drinking a lot. And I was feeling like garbage the next day when I would go into work. And after a few months, it was bad enough that I was like, Okay, I pretty much hate the way I feel i can’t function. And if I keep down this road, I didn’t think five or 10 years later, I literally thought like, in two more months, I’m gonna be toast like I can’t do this anymore. And that, that was like a really interesting, like introspective moment that where I was interested in making a change, you know? So I think this question is helpful to be reflective on yourself, what is life gonna look like in five to 10 years? And then number four, is what can life look like, in five or 10 years, if I make a change today? So that’s a really encouraging one, that’s a really exciting one, it helps you see the future, see the vision of what could be for you if you’re going to make a change in your life today. So, you know, when you’re stuck in stage three, you know, which is again, survival mode, basically. You know, these are four questions that you can help, you know, ask yourself to help you shift through it.

Lesley Logan 33:40
Yeah, I had a Be It Action Item about repeat betrayal, repeat betrayal. So this is if you like, find like you keep getting betrayed. She said you are lovable, worthy, and deserving. But she also said, for the Be It Action, you need better boundaries in place. And we talk about this a lot with the people that we coach, which is like you train people how to treat you, which are boundaries. And I just want to say, just because we say that doesn’t mean people won’t betray you. But I do think you will feel it differently if you had better boundaries in place. Because you will probably see it before. Like, there’s just you might be able to like you won’t feel like it’s happening to you. So I don’t know, I could be wrong, Debi, you can tell me. But the reality is.

Brad Crowell 34:31
You did talk about this because you asked her like, hey, you know, if I get betrayed again, do I have to go back to stage three?

Lesley Logan 34:39
Yeah, yeah. So she said you need better boundaries in place and she’s like, unless there’s a benefit in learning the hard way. And she, she said as a targeted step, you can identify areas lacking boundaries or reflect on aspects of your life where boundaries are weak or nonexistent and set boundaries in place. And here’s the deal guys. Guess what? When you put boundaries in place where there wasn’t one, people might feel betrayed by that. You need to understand.

Brad Crowell 35:08
It’s possible.

Lesley Logan 35:09
It’s true like for my teachers who are listening, if you never charge for late cancels and you start charging for late cancels, people gonna be pissed. Because you didn’t do it before. You have to own that you weren’t doing that before. And you have to say, I understand. You don’t have to apologize. I understand this change sucks. But this is business, I got to do it. If you have friends, if you have friends or family members who walk all over you, you know, and you start to like, stand up for yourself. They’re gonna feel upset about that. They might even feel betrayed that you’ve changed. Yeah, how dare you? How dare you. Iliza Shlesinger will say on her podcast, you guys, I love her podcast if you know Iliza, I want her on the pod, like I didn’t ask her because she just had a baby. But like, yes, I do. Because I mean, what a be it till you see it woman, but she is saying, she always says we have to be comfortable making people as uncomfortable as they have made us.

Brad Crowell 36:01

Lesley Logan 36:02
And so.

Brad Crowell 36:04
That’s fucking hard to do.

Lesley Logan 36:08
She says that too. She’s like, I know I tell you to do it doesn’t mean I do it. But it’s so here’s the thing. Like, if you are feeling like people are overstepping boundaries that you haven’t enforced, they’re making you uncomfortable. And so you’re going to enforce them which will make them feel uncomfortable. But you they’ve been making you feel uncomfortable, you have to be comfortable making them feel as uncomfortable as they make you. And another person I’m gonna quote is Lori Harder, which is like, we can’t take away other people’s rock bottom. So we cannot take away the lessons people need to learn. And sometimes it sucks to be the lesson someone has to learn. But that you are allowed to have boundaries that allow you to do this life better because I always say this, this is me quoting me. You are the only person who can do what you do the way that you do it. And if you burn out, if you are lost, if you feel stuck, the world loses your amazingness. And to have people like to have to be as amazing as I am. There are boundaries in place, y’all. There are and it’s not always perfect. It’s not always easy, and sometimes it offends people in ways that I didn’t intend. Sometimes I have to go oh, shit, I didn’t fucking think that would happen. Thank you for letting me know. Here’s how it was intended. Here is how, like let’s talk about it.

Brad Crowell 37:30
I’m gonna, I’m gonna quote me. Fuck yeah.

Lesley Logan 37:33
Yeah. So anyways, I’m Lesley Logan.

Brad Crowell 37:36
And I’m Brad Crowell.

Lesley Logan 37:37
Clearly we’re gonna have Dr. Debi Silber back. Thanks, team for already asking her. Thank you for joining us today. How are you going to use these tips in your life we want to know. We want to know. Share this with a friend who needs it. Share this with a friend who’s constantly feeling betrayed that you just want to give a little shake, shake to and little tough love to. And until next time, Be It Till You See It.

Brad Crowell 37:58
Bye for now.

Lesley Logan
That’s all I’ve got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over on IG at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us help others to BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!

Lesley Logan
‘Be It Till You See It’ is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @be_it_pod.

Brad Crowell
It’s written, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.

Lesley Logan
It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at

Brad Crowell
Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music and our branding by designer and artist Gianfranco Cioffi.

Lesley Logan
Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.

Brad Crowell
Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.

Pod Social Media

More Episodes


Stay Current on Podcasts

& Advice!


Submit a Comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

The owner of this website has made a commitment to accessibility and inclusion, please report any problems that you encounter using the contact form on this website. This site uses the WP ADA Compliance Check plugin to enhance accessibility.