Shownotes

Lesley Logan sits down with Melissa Doman, an organizational psychologist and author of Yes, You Can Talk About Mental Health at Work, to discuss the importance of open dialogues about mental health in the workplace. They explore how to approach difficult conversations, the power of vulnerability, and actionable steps for fostering a supportive work environment.

If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co.

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In this episode you will learn about:

• How companies are embracing mental health discussions.
• Advice for handling negative workplace dynamics.
• Ways to use specificity to solve workplace challenges.
• How intentions and impacts can differ in interactions.
• Insights from meeting Radical Candor author Kim Scott.
• The benefits of receiving and asking for support.
• Awareness vs. action in mental health conversations.

Episode References/Links:

• Melissa Doman Website – https://www.melissadoman.com
• Melissa Doman LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissadoman1/
• Melissa Doman Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/thewanderingmel
• Yes, You Can Talk About Mental Health at Work by Melissa Doman – https://a.co/d/0inIFl7X
• Radical Candor by Kims Scott (Updated Edition) – https://a.co/d/0bUFvq1B
• OPC Website – https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/
• OPC Perks – https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/

Transcript

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INTRODUCTION

Lesley Logan
Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I’m Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I’ve trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it’s the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It’s a practice, not a perfect. Let’s get started.

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Lesley Logan
All right, Be It babe. This interview today is one of my dear, lovely women in my life. I’m so grateful that I got to meet her. So grateful I reached out to meet her like, please, you guys, reach out to people who inspire you and tell them. Like and we have an amazing story about that in this episode, actually. But that is how I met Mel is because I heard her on another podcast. I was like I want you on mine. She said yes. And then we met in person. And while you’ll hear that, physically, you know sparkles and glitter didn’t come parting out of us. I felt them. So today I have a guest back. She’s been on the show before. And she’s an incredible author, and we’ll talk about her book Yes, You Can Talk About Mental Health At Work and why you should. And we also talk a little bit how you can talk about it at work. And then what I’m excited for you to hear is also like two women sharing what it’s like to grow in their business. And I know a lot of you are small business owners wanting to start new things and be working with other people. And I think it’s so important that you know, everything is a work in progress. Everything takes a lot of time. A lot of people are doing things scared and doing the best they can and I hope that this really helps you see that you can do that, too. And you can be it till you see it. And it’s not about being perfect. It’s about learning. So here is Mel Doman.

All right, Be It babe, this is gonna be an awesome wild interview. I’m just gonna say it right now, we’re gonna have the best time Mel Doman is here. She’s back. And she and I finally got to meet in real life. And it was a lunch that could have kept going in fact, I would definitely remember being late for my next call. So we are so excited that you’re back, Mel, just in case anyone missed your first interview, can you tell everyone who you are and what you rock at?

Melissa Doman 2:48
Oh, I have been so looking forward to this. And when we got to meet up in person, I’m shocked that we didn’t fart sparkles or something like that because it was just it was like a clashing of two galaxies. So I am Melissa Doman. I’m an organizational psychologist, former clinical mental health therapist and author of Yes, You Can Talk About Mental Health at Work: Here’s Why… and How to Do it Really Well. So I teach businesses, leaders and individuals how to have realistic and constructive conversations about mental health, team dynamics and communication in the workplace. My clients range from really large organizations like Estée Lauder, Dow Jones, Google to midsize organizations like Orlando City Soccer Club to small mom-and-pop companies and everything in between. And I do (inaudible) virtually, in person, keynotes facilitation, (inaudible) interviews, strategic advising and on a personal note, I do a very impressive Chewbacca impression. I do.

Lesley Logan 3:52
Okay, Brad is gonna be upset if I don’t ask you to do it though. You know, like

Melissa Doman 3:56
It’ll be your reward at the end.

Lesley Logan 3:58
I love it. You got to stay till the end, stay till the end. Okay, so this happened, we happen to be talking about what one of the things that you focus on all year long during the month of May which apparently is mental health month I did not know this because I don’t live by the calendar as of like today is like dog mom day I don’t I don’t do although people are gonna laugh because every Thursday we do use the calendar. Okay, today is change your password day. Like we do do that on Thursdays guys, but I don’t actually look at the month. And what I love about you is that you’re like, not about companies only focus on mental health in May you’re about them focus on it all the time. And since we last had you on, do you feel that companies are more open to talking about mental health or do you feel like it’s, do you feel it’s just it’s the same as before and you’re still kind of do you feel like you’ve made a dent? Or you know what I mean? Like where are we at in society?

Melissa Doman 4:53
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So I actually think it’s a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B and here’s why. It’s entirely company-dependent, industry-dependent, and in some cases, team-dependent, because you might have a company that’s super open about talking about mental health, but then you have some butthead leaders who are like, I’m not taking part of my chip. So there are some companies that really took the pandemic, as a serious kick in the butt to enable these conversations in a more sustainable way for a whole host of reasons. There are other companies that are like, well, we’re in endemic status now, so we can stop check-boxing and go back to what we were doing before. So it’s a little bit of both, I think it really depends very much on the ecosystem in which people work, however, on a very public plateau, and you know, looking outwardly seeing all the messaging that’s coming out, Oh, my God, it’s everywhere. It has come so far, in the past, gosh, six years since I started subspecializing in this, it’s unbelievable. I even saw and I’m very conscious, I’m on a wellbeing-focused podcast, so please forgive me for the example I’m about to give, okay? McDonald’s, put out an ad that for Mental Health Awareness Month, they’re taking the smiley face off of the Happy Meal, because kids have a whole range of emotions, and you don’t want to tell them how they’re feeling. And I was like, Oh, my God, I never would have imagined seeing something like that. Yes, it seemed to children. But you never would have seen something like that 10 years ago.

Lesley Logan 6:40
I’m shocked.

Melissa Doman 6:41
The Happy Meal. The Happy Meal.

Lesley Logan 6:44
Yeah. It’s called the Happy Meal.

Melissa Doman 6:46
They took the smiley face off the box for the month of May. And I sat there, I was like, Oh, my God, this is unreal. And so you’re seeing it way more in the public sphere, which is great. Some places it’s performative. Absolutely. But you know, long, long story short, I think it really depends on who you’re talking to, and where you’re looking.

Lesley Logan 7:08
Okay. Yeah, yeah. Well, I’m so happy to hear it’s a little bit of calming, that’s great. And I also think

Melissa Doman 7:13
Oh yes, I think making sure of it.

Lesley Logan 7:15
Yeah, I know, you have it. And I also think the honesty there that sometimes it is the people and I think that, you know, it can be person-dependent. And it can, yeah, that person can have such an effect on your ecosystem, your sphere of like where you’re at. So you could be working for the company that has all the things and people, I don’t know what they’re called, people services, HR is like doing all this work to make sure everything is there. And then like, there’s one person that’s in front of you. And I feel like I might have talked about this a little bit on our first podcast episode together. But for the people listening who are working in a space where they feel like there’s a person who’s kind of affecting them being able to talk about mental health at work, do you have advice for them? Because I do think that’s a be it till you see it kind of thing. You almost can’t just like walk in and go, like, here vomit up all of the stuff that’s going on to your mental health, but also like you also want to feel like you have the confidence and capabilities to share what you’re feeling.

Melissa Doman 8:13
Yeah. Well, I think it’s a you know, there’s two different questions in there. Because one is, you know, effectively talking about your mental health at work. The other one is letting someone else know when they’re affecting your mental health at work.

Lesley Logan 8:27
I don’t think I’ve ever been able to, I think I don’t work in corporate, I work for myself, because I don’t know that I would be able to do the second one. Like tell the person you’re affecting my mental health.

Melissa Doman 8:35
Oh, I might have done exactly that at a job I had. Would you like to hear the tale?

Lesley Logan 8:41
Yeah, let’s do. People like, we like stories here.

Melissa Doman 8:43
Oh, yes. So a boss I had before I went out on my own. And I was doing a temporary cover position for someone who’s out on leave for a while. And that person who I was covering for was amazing, very good at their job. I was also good at that job. And I did it just a little bit differently. And people received it differently and in a positive way. So that person’s boss looked at me very much as a placeholder to make sure to, you know, feel that I was not welcome, we’ll say, and kind of resented the fact that I did very well and went out of their way to you know, sabotage me and just make sure that they told me and that I wasn’t welcomed in this place, despite the success I was having. And it got really bad to the point where this person would, you know, sabotage actively like workshops I was doing trying to trip me up stuff like that. And one day, I just had enough. And I kept trying to win this person over with kindness that didn’t work. And so they saw my face after one of the sessions. And I’m the woman of a thousand faces. So they said, “Are you okay?” I said, “Nope.” They said, “Do you need to talk?” I said, “That would be great.” And so we go into a private room. And I said, “You negatively affect my mental health at and outside of work.” To which they said, “Well, what’s your proof?” That was their, that was their response. I was like, Oh, my God. And I said, “Me telling you is the proof. It is the proof. I understand that you don’t want me here. I understand that my contract is temporary. That doesn’t mean you get an excuse to treat me poorly, sabotage me, make me feel unwelcome. You, you don’t need to, like love on me like you do the rest of your team. But you need to treat me with respect. And for the remainder of my contract here. I am not going to put up with this anymore. And shame on you.” This is the head of HR, by the way. I said, “Shame on you for being in a people-focused role and doing this to me.” And she was floored. She was like, well, you know, just like they all do. Now listen, folks, I am more direct than most. And I realized that it was a temporary contract. And I was like, consequences be damned. But you have to be able to address people who are negatively affecting your mental health at work or dare I say being a bully. Is there a risk to addressing that? Absolutely. Absolutely there’s risks. Do I recommend doing it like balls to the wall like I did? Probably not. That came from a place of desperation. But if someone is negatively impacting your mental health at work, and I know this is much tougher if it’s a boss versus a colleague, so let’s do an easier example, colleague, you may not want to be so on the nose. But let’s say this person is like stressing you out, not communicating in an effective way, not getting stuff done, you know, whatever the reason is, it might be something that sounds like, I feel it’s really important for our working relationship for me to tell you the impact that you’ve been having on me at work, and also how I work. I’ve been trying to do ABCDEFG, it’s often met with XYZ. I want us to have a good functional relationship. But I experience you as making that very difficult for me. And I know this is a hard conversation, but I want to have it. So we can try and work this out. Are you open to this feedback, because we can’t continue this way. Now, again, that’s very, very direct. And a lot of people they don’t they don’t like direct feedback, even when you use radical candor, when you’re, you know, giving feedback with care. And so the alternative is saying nothing, letting that person continue to do what they’re doing without consequence and then your mental health goes into a ditch. So it really needs to be addressed. I’m a big fan of making sure people know that intention and impact are not the same thing.

Lesley Logan 13:20
Okay, well, I want to touch on that. And I also just to say like, while it feels it can be direct actually thought that your example was quite specific. And you guys, if you go to the show notes, you can just take that little transcript part and insert ABCD as what they are and XYZ as what they are. Because here’s why. Here’s why I think that it can be very helpful. If you, too often, instead of being direct, we do the opposite of like, you know, you make me like feel like this. And there’s and it’s been, you know, for a while, and if you’re not specific about what the feeling is, and when it happened, people are less likely to take you seriously or to take it seriously. Because they’re

Melissa Doman 14:01
And to ask for a different solution. Some of these people are asking for solution.

Lesley Logan 14:07
Yeah. So I think like, if you, if you are someone who needs this, like, take that little sentence there, (inaudible) big sentence, and just try to fill in the blanks there and then use your own words. But I do know that specificity actually makes people at least listen to the conversation whether or not they choose to react to it or play along. And then if it is a colleague versus a boss, and when you go to your boss, you can say this is what I said, which is has all the specific moments of how you felt or how you’re made to feel and then the instances that happen and people your boss can also take that seriously and understand exactly when the evidence when the things happen. And I think that’s really, really important.

Melissa Doman 14:48
Well, also coming to the table saying, you know, these things are making me unhappy. But I want to invite a conversation to try to work this out where there could be in some cases that people have no idea that they are impacting that way, there are some people who are really dense and they’re like, oh my God, I had no idea. And then there’s other people who will not even consider the feedback and be like, thanks for stopping by. But it doesn’t mean that, you know, just because it’s a hard conversation doesn’t mean it’s a worthy one.

Lesley Logan 15:15
Do you remember? I just have to like side note, did you hear about the women who found out that they were all dating Huberman at the same time, and they all approached him and his

Melissa Doman 15:26
Dating who?

Lesley Logan 15:27
Huberman the podcast, or the health podcast, or the Stanford doc like the Stanford scientist, whatever, researcher, so.

Melissa Doman 15:35
What is this?

Lesley Logan 15:36
Okay, go down the rabbit hole, I promise you, it’s everything. So you know, he’s living with one woman and going through fertility with her, treatments with her. And then there was other women. And look, it sounds like maybe no one had actually had a conversation that they were in an actual monogamous relationship. So but they and they never came forward with their names. They actually came forward as a group to him and just said, hey, we found out we’re all dating you like, you know, this thing. And his response was, thank you for your feedback.

Melissa Doman 16:11
That makes me so sad. I love listening to him.

Lesley Logan 16:15
I know I’m so sorry.

Melissa Doman 16:18
Oh, no.

Lesley Logan 16:18
I know. I’m so sorry.

Melissa Doman 16:20
When did this happen?

Lesley Logan 16:21
Early. So you guys, this is May. So I think like I want to say February, March, it came out. Oh my god, but he hasn’t responded at all. He’s like doing the non-response. He’s doing the no response. So in your example, like he just saw, he’s like, no, no, like, just gonna keep going with life as a (inaudible). It’s really, it’s actually a very interesting, like, observation of people.

Melissa Doman 16:46
That makes me feel so achy. I’m so sad to hear that.

Lesley Logan 16:49
So sorry. I’m so sorry. Because he has really good information. Yeah, but.

Melissa Doman 16:53
It’s the truth.

Lesley Logan 16:54
And then we have to just decide, like, you know, are we listening for the information? Or do we care about the person but, anyways, (inaudible) I wanted, Brad’s gonna be rolling his eyes once he hears this.

Melissa Doman 17:04
I can’t wait to look this up.

Lesley Logan 17:05
I know. It’s a worthy read. So, you mentioned intention and impact are different things. Can we expand on (inaudible)?

Melissa Doman 17:14
Yes. I mean, what, gosh, what’s that old crappy adage is like the road to hell is paved with good intentions, stuff like that. I say that is, you know, as an atheist who doesn’t believe in that stuff. But so, the thing is that intention versus impact is really different. And if I want to, you know, keep it light for a minute, you know, for anybody who’s in a committed relationship of any type, I call those the Greatest Hits fights. It wasn’t what you said, it’s how you said it. And then this is how it landed, you know, whatever. So the, and yes, people take things the wrong way. And people have triggers. And people have sensitivity. So it is a two-way street. So if someone is impacting your mental health, it’s also helpful to think about, wait a minute, how much of this is my stuff? And how much of this is them? Because when people activate things in us, it’s not usually 100% them, some of it, it’s our stuff to a degree. And so before having that conversation, I think you got to talk to yourself and be like, what is it I didn’t like about this? Why don’t, why don’t I like it? Is it really them? Do I have some stuff I need to look at, you know, what, what’s the most effective way to approach this? Because oftentimes, people will go to somebody who is like stressing them out or whatever. And though, you’re stressing me out, like, from ABC, like, you have to stop. And then, but that’s it, there’s no, here’s why I’m bringing this up. Here’s what I would like, instead. You know, it’s, it needs to be more, you know, how do we change this trajectory as opposed to let me give you a laundry list of, you know, a laundry list of reasons why you pissed me off, and you make me like mentally sick. So that’s not really a helpful way to encourage dialogue.

Lesley Logan 19:08
Yeah, ’cause also, then you’re asking the person who is pissing you off or stressing you out to then come up with another way on their own to like, they would just be guessing. So like, it’s which means they probably will do nothing, because like, you just get stuck. Like there’s two, yeah, if you tell me

Melissa Doman 19:26
Or it’s awkward. Yeah. If you’re going to talk about your mental health, and this will go on to the other. The other question that you had, if you’re going to talk about your mental health, whether it’s someone who is disrupting it, or you’re just struggling in general, no offense to folks who believe in clairvoyance, mind readers, mediums, people generally can’t read your mind. So if you’re going to be talking about your mental health, you have to tell people what’s going on for you, what you want them to do with that information because if that’s a very complex conversation, don’t want to overcomplicate it if you don’t have to. And so, most of the onus, when it comes to mental health conversations, especially at work, is on the listener, it’s on the supporter. But I think if you’re gonna go into that conversation, the sharer has some responsibility to do a little bit of backend prep first about the outcome that they’re going for.

Lesley Logan 20:19
Yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s very fair and very wise. And also it allows, I think the one of the reasons I love doing the show and be until you see it is like acting as if you’re the person you want to be. It requires us to be reflective of things and not just go and do the same thing over and over again, expecting it to be a different result. Like you have to act differently. And you have to do things differently. And what you’re asking is, like, if something’s bothering you, be reflective, like, why is that bother me? What is this bringing up? How does it make you feel? And what do I want instead? And you know, and so, because then if you can figure out what you want instead, people actually do want, like, they do want you to feel good, because if you feel good at work, then everyone’s going to feel better than if you are

Melissa Doman 21:11
I wish that was true for every person.

Lesley Logan 21:14
There’s just some some assholes. Yes, that’s true. Do you want to hear something?

Melissa Doman 21:18
And listen, I agree with you, generally speaking, people have some shred of empathy. I will never forget that someone said to me that their boss told them and I quote, unless someone is dying, I don’t want to hear about your mental health. Verbatim.

Lesley Logan 21:37
So strange. Like the mental, it’s so strange to me that people don’t, you know, I also, here’s the thing, like as a small business owner who tries very, very hard to be open to my teams need a Mental Health Day, sometimes you’re like, so you want, you need a mental health day today? There’s like, God, we got to work on a project. So I get it. And like part of me is like, okay, how do we make sure we have a, we pick deadlines, and we start them early enough that if anyone needs a mental health day, like it doesn’t fuck the deadline, you know? So it’s like, it’s like the onus on me as a person who wants to be thoughtful of what if someone gets sick? What if this changes, you know, like, I’ve got a person on my team I know who wants to have a kid. So we’re talking about things the next year, I’m like, that person might be pregnant. So like, if she’s pregnant, how are we going to do that thing, just in case like, I want to, like think through and that requires sometimes a bigger team or longer timelines. So I do get as a business owner, how that can be frustrating. I do not get like not wanting to think about it all. Like, I feel like that is like you’re just not gonna have a team who cares. They’re gonna be there

Melissa Doman 22:42
Oh girl. You don’t want to hear some of the stories I’ve heard, the level of dispassionate-ness I’m sure I’m not saying, dispassion, maybe that’s the right way to say it, the level of dispassion is shocking. Not to me, but in general, they absolutely exist. I just spoke to someone not long ago, who, when I said, oh you’re, you know, you’re a leader and you’re in such an amazing position of visibility and influence to influence these conversations. And again, it can’t just be leaders it has to be people from any tenure position, because we’re all chronologically aged. It felt, the first thing they said, and they have over 100 people reporting to them. When I say oh, well, you’re in such a great position. How cool is that? And they said, Well, you just have to be really careful and dot your, and dot your i’s and cross your t’s, because, immediately went to the liability lens. And I was like, yes, of course, that’s a concern. Yes, these things can go south, but you, you’re just not ready. You don’t want to if that’s the first place that your mind goes, or maybe you messed that up in the past and then went poorly. So now you’re off of that sauce forever. And it’s you just, you, unfortunately, can’t assume and it makes me sad.

Lesley Logan 24:08
Yeah, it makes me sad because I like wish that their first thing was like, hey, I want it to be that, but here’s what I’m worried about. Or here’s what happened. Like, how do I like, like, I, you know, because like, it’s not like it’s been smooth sailing for like, everyone’s gonna make mistakes, especially when it comes to like, especially when it actually does come to talk about mental health because at the same time as the person listening, you have your own I have my own mental health stuff, but you know, so then you’re like, okay, now I’m going to take on your thing. Okay. Noted. Got it. Okay. Got it. Got to figure this out. But I think that’s why I like your suggestion on how to talk about it. Because if someone came to me with like, here’s what’s bothering me, here’s how I’m going. Here’s what I want to happen. Even if I’m having not so great a mental health day I can go okay, cool. Let me take that. Let me think about it. Let me think of what I can do. You know, it doesn’t feel like I’m being vomited up onto and then I’ve got to figure your shit out, plus my shit out.

Melissa Doman 25:08
I have lost track, even after leaving clinical 10 years ago, when the number of people who go and my first question is, what would you like me to do with this information? Or, you know, how can I best help you? And they they start glitching? Because they didn’t think of it. All they did was I just need to get this out. And I go well, great. But now what? So, it’s, you know, I’m all about, I’m all about that good old fashioned vent. But, you know, even if you’re gonna do that, tell someone I need to vent and then you know how to take the information?

Lesley Logan 25:49
Yeah, I think there’s just, it’s almost like awareness. We all need a little self-awareness around or laws (inaudible) intelligence on like, what is it that you need? And so I mean, like, with my, my husband always wants to fix things, right? When I tell him what’s going on. He was like, I want to like, he’ll often say, like, what do you want with this information? I’m like, okay, you’re right. So now I just say, I don’t want you to fix this. I just need to be fucking pissed off about this right now. And it’ll be really great if he just like got pissed off with me.

Melissa Doman 26:19
Like, I had the same conversation

Lesley Logan 26:21
Be mad at them with me. You know, because if, but I had to learn that because if you if you don’t say those things, then they try to fix like, I want you to fix it like, and then they’re just confused.

Melissa Doman 26:33
They don’t know.

Lesley Logan 26:33
They don’t know. And that’s not just husbands. That’s like, everyone in your life, people. So like preface what it is, it’s event. I need, I have, I would like to talk about solutions. You know, I’m trying to figure out what I want. Like, you know, there’s just different things. Yeah. We could talk forever. And but I, you actually brought up Radical Candor. And I think that’s a great time for us to chat about, like, you met the author of Radical Candor.

Melissa Doman 26:58
I did. i did. I have no chill. She was so cool about it. I can’t remember if I told you this story.

Lesley Logan 27:04
You can just tell me again, because I want you to, I want you to share it. Because when you so we’re going to talk a little bit about your like, like big, big girl business badass pants, like at South by Southwest and like what happened but like this story makes me smile. So it’s a very be it it till you see it moment, guys. Here it is.

Melissa Doman 27:23
So I call Kim Scott, the queen of feedback. And I just love her Radical Candor model. That was you know, her first, her first book, The second book that just came out it’s called Radical Respect. I’m like 60 pages in and I kept like, my neck was hurting I was nodding so much as I was reading it.

Lesley Logan 27:46
Oh I’m behind on the times I need to get this book.

Melissa Doman 27:49
It just came, you know it just came out like a week ago, like a week ago, I got an advance reader copy at South by Southwest.

Lesley Logan 27:55
Oh, check you out.

Melissa Doman 27:57
Well, she had a book signing, it wasn’t just me. I would love to say that. But so speaking of South by Southwest, in March, and I had my keynotes and I was going to do my book signing later that day. And I saw that Kim Scott was there and I was like, oh my God. And so I unfortunately had to miss her session, but the session on book signing like an hour before mine. And so I got in line, and I was the first person in line. And I had her book in my hands. And I went up to the table. And just like in Wayne’s World, I had no chill, and started moving my arms up and down and going, I’m not worthy. I’m not worthy. And I just was ridiculous. And she was so cool about it. And she’s so sweet. And she signed my book. And we took a picture together, me and her and her book. And I had like the biggest shit-eating grin on my face. And I told her about what I do for work. And she’s and I was doing my sign in an hour. And I said, you know, it would be the honor of my career if I could give you a copy of my book. You can totally say no, but I would kick myself if I didn’t ask. And she said, yes, I would love a copy. Will you sign it? And I was like, oh, yes, Kim Scott, I will give you a copy of my book and sign it. And I was telling her how I use Radical Candor, a ton in my work on mental health at work. And she said, oh, you should come on my podcast. And I was like, for real? She’s like, yeah, go talk to my manager. He’s over there. So I’m currently scheduled to be on her podcast later this year. And I’m just shitting a brick with like, fear and excitement and sparkles like all at the same time because she, yeah, she’s like, yeah.

Lesley Logan 29:56
I don’t even remember when I read Radical Candor, but I read it many years ago because I feel like it’s not, it’s been out for a while. But you know, there’s those years of the pandemic that just all blur together. And I bought it because I had an assistant, and my husband, and one other person on the team, I’m like, I think I need to learn how to do this, I need to learn to talk to my team because I don’t know. And I just really, I love her examples in that book. So I just, I’m so excited for you. It’s so this is the coolest thing. I love it. Because like, first of all, I love that you actually, like, let yourself do that, because I think that is actually really cool. And probably why you got to even talk to her as long as you did. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you had just (inaudible). Like, I love your book, you know? Like, if you would just be like, and I have a book, it wouldn’t have been as genuine like you’re so genuine.

Melissa Doman 30:53
Thanks, girl. Yeah, I actually have to give credit where credit is due my intern, who I will, she did such an amazing job, I’m going to be hiring her in a freelance capacity to do some other stuff. For me. She’s amazing. She flew in all the way from Germany to support me at South by Southwest. And she ended up being like, my assistant handler, like, what do you need, like, whenever I was talking to people, like she had a copy of my book in her purse, I didn’t tell her to do that. And she, when I was talking to this, like former NFL player, and I mentioned the book, she just popped out for my three o’clock, I was like, here’s a copy. And I was like, oh, my God, she’s the one.

Lesley Logan 31:36
New SOPs for all new speaking gigs, by the way, new standard procedures.

Melissa Doman 31:42
She’s the one to encourage me to offer a copy of my book to Kim. And I was like, no, I’m sure tons of people are gonna do that. Like, I don’t want to be rude. I don’t want to seem opportunistic. And she said, you’re not because just be yourself. Just be yourself and offer it to her how you would do it to anybody else. And I was like, okay, so it was because of my intern who encouraged me to do it that I did it.

Lesley Logan 32:09
I love that you had someone there to help you. I think we all. So just to talk about this. You were at South by Southwest, you spoke there you presented. And you, yes, she came out to support you. But like, we all need to actually admit that, like, it’s actually okay for people to support us. And it’s so good to have someone there. Whether it is an intern, or someone that you can say, hey, I just need you to be here because like there’s a lot that goes on at events when you and if you are not the if you’re not, if you’re not just an attendee if you’re also speaking at them, or you’re also presenting or something like, it can be very difficult to keep it all you can kind of get like I’m in my head until my presentation, I got to do these things. And we kind of get you can get a little linear. Having someone who can be outside looking in and like spotting things and reminding you of things. It’s so important to have those people. When my husband comes with me to events, we actually it is, they are always the best events because if I go out, when I go to Poland to speak by myself, I come back I’m like, so there was like three people I was supposed to talk to about. I don’t know that I actually did it. Did I do that? Like it’s a whirlwind? And so it’s easy to forget things. And so to have someone there, it’s so key.

Melissa Doman 33:20
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Having her change the entire experience for me. And every day, multiple times a day she goes, how can I support you? What do you need? How can I be helpful? There was even a moment because I was kicking myself for doing this, talk about a mental health panic. I was flying from Austin to Vegas, because then I spoke at a HR conference called transform, which is where you and I got to hang out. And so, not at the conference, but in Vegas.

Lesley Logan 33:53
Yeah, you guys. The listeners did not think I was at a HR conference. They.

Melissa Doman 33:58
No. So basically, I was like looking at my flight from Austin to Vegas. And I don’t remember what happened. Because I think I got like it was heavily delayed or something like that. And I said, let me see if I can find a different flight In my stupidity I booked a flight for the next day, the wrong day. And then I tried to reverse it. And my seat was gone in under a minute. And I was panicking. And so she just come to my room from her hotel, and I was like, oh my god, I’m freaking out. And she goes, what can I do to help? We’re gonna get this worked out. Just tell me and I was like, I’m so happy you’re here. So she helped me and she like was doing other research. It all worked out fine. But you know, being a being a business of one. And now I’m at a business of like, five or six, and just remembering that, like I even opened up to so I mean, I realize, we, you and I’ve talked about this before, I feel I have the best assistant on the fucking planet. And I opened up to her the other day about some personal struggles I’m having and some other stuff that’s going on. And she was so sweet. And she listened to me. And she, you know, we had a wonderful conversation. And she texted me actually later that night, and said, I’m really happy, we had a productive call, but I’m even more appreciative that you told me about the stuff that’s going on. And like, my heart goes out to you, and I hope you’re okay. And I was like, Oh, my God I love this person. It’s good to ask for help. It doesn’t matter. Like, how much of a badass, you know, you try to be, you know, everybody needs support. And I’m a huge, huge believer that it’s a wonderful opportunity for people to support their boss, you know, managers support their team members. But I feel that’s a two-way street. I really do.

Lesley Logan 36:20
Yeah, well, I think like, especially when it comes to, you guys, for assistance. If you have one, like I told my executive assistant, I’m like, your job is going to have some things in my personal life and some things that are business life. And so you’re going to know more about me, than the project manager does or anyone else in the team, aside from my husband, because there’s just going to be things that I’m going to need help on so that I can do my job the best. And that was so hard for me to learn. My first assistant had been an assistant for a long, long time, so she trained me on what an assistant can do.

Melissa Doman 36:58
Oh, mine is training me. She’s training me, 100%.

Lesley Logan 37:00
Totally, totally training me, like totally trained me. And she was so, so good at it. I was like, I was like, Can you do this? Can you do this? And she’s like, it’s my job. So you don’t have to ask me if I can just, you actually can say, hey, here are the things I’d like you to do. And here’s what I’d like them to be done by.

Melissa Doman 37:17
Same conversation as mine. Oh my God. I literally sometimes have on my calendar. I’m not joking. I’ll have like blocks with this do tasks for, her name is Alana, and I go do tasks for Alana and I told her I was like, I put my homework on my calendar to do my stuff for you. And she’s like, you’re ridiculous.

Lesley Logan 37:38
I want to I want to say like, since you went from a business of one, and then now it’s grown. And you obviously like your whole thing is like taught about mental health at work. How has that? What’s the be it till you see it even doing to help yourself, like be the leader that you truly believe other people can be like, because I mean, like, you know what it is that you want to be like, was it easy to step into those shoes? Or did you find yourself taking your own homework?

Melissa Doman 38:06
Oh, my God, being, being, okay, so hard. And I think that the best thing that I’ve been able to do, as I’ve been adding different folks to the team, now keep in mind, these folks are not full-time as a team of contractors, but they are my team. And I feel that what helped me transition best into that is admitting how novice I was. And basically saying, like, listen, I need to learn how to do this right. And so I’m gonna do the best that I think, but if there’s anything I could do differently, I could do better, because I know they’re coming from a good place. And so I always say like, please tell me, like, tell me what will help our relationship, what will help you succeed, etc. And so, for me, it was admitting how novice I truly was. And in some ways still am and how open to feedback that I want to be because I gosh, I had some terrible, terrible, terrible managers in my career. And that would be like a nightmare if I did something like that. And so yeah, that’s it, admitting that I don’t know how to do it all but that I’m trying to learn how to do it, you know, a little bit better a little bit more each day.

Lesley Logan 39:41
I love that. That is awesome. I’m excited for you. You’re gonna get, you’re gonna get to do so many more things. Just so you know, because like, it’s not easy to do it all yourself. There’s like a lot of stuff that and by the way, like, there’s a lot of times it’s actually exhausting to do when you don’t need to be the one that does it.

Melissa Doman 39:59
Oh my god. I remember when I first started out with my assistant, that it was really because my business is my baby. And I work so hard, and I’m very detail-oriented. And it was really hard to find someone to trust. And they understood that, you know, they were like, okay, let’s start with these low hanging fruit. We’ll see how that goes, let’s ease into it. And she really understood. And initially, because she, oh my god, she is like, amazing at the things I’m terrible at. So like process implementation, data management, you know, all these like, this, this core one-on-one set of things. I’m like, I don’t want to do that. So she initially was so patient with me, because I fought it kicking and screaming, because I did everything like very manual. And now, I’m like, oh, my God, what, what can you take from me? And how do we do that? Because it’s so nice to not have to worry and just have that complete trust in someone that she genuinely gives a shit. And that is so hard to find.

Lesley Logan 41:01
Yeah. And also, when you know, when you start to, like, let go of the things that actually take up more brain space, because it’s not natural for you, then you actually can spend more time doing the things that do come natural and do like (inaudible) why you like doing it, which means more energy and excitement and more ideas. And you can go, you know, you can go further because you’ve got people to help you.

Melissa Doman 41:24
Exactly. So I’m in that scaling mode now. And it’s, I’m not gonna lie, scary. It’s tough. But I also know I need to, and my husband, probably maybe a year ago, or something a little bit less. He had a come to Jesus conversation with me and was like, you cannot continue doing everything yourself. You have to start finding people that can take stuff off your plate, and that you can trust. And this is not negotiable. And I was like, oh, fine. And it was the best lecture. I didn’t want and, and needed, so.

Lesley Logan 42:04
I’m glad he did that. Because it meant you had this event at South by Southwest because if you’re like, you know what I mean, you wouldn’t have had that it wouldn’t have happened.

Melissa Doman 42:14
The best part is when I have calls with my assistant, and my husband walks in and he goes, what are you talking about? And then Alana goes, we’re talking about blah, blah. And so my husband’s name is Matt, and she goes we’re talking about blah, blah, and he goes oh fucking finally. He goes, I’m happy she’s listening to you. (inaudible) You’re ganging up against me (inaudible) there’s two of them.

Lesley Logan 42:40
Matt’s gonna start sending her a Slack message just like hey, by the way, there’s these other three things since she brought those up we gotta put these on the timeline.

Melissa Doman 42:48
When they hear this episode, don’t give them ideas. Don’t give them ideas.

Lesley Logan 42:52
I will say. So I wanted to, I wanted a Vespa in L.A. because like I wanted a little Vespa and you can just get a Vespa right? You don’t have to like, you don’t have to get a motorcycle license because they ride like a bike. But my husband’s like, no, if you’re gonna get a Vespa in L.A. you got to get a motorcycle license. And I was like, okay, I’ll go. So my assistant, flexing the motorcycle license, school thing, whatever it is. And I did everything perfect, perfect written test every day of the practice was really great until the test, which of course, test anxiety, of course, this happens to me. All the people crash the whole time, they’re crashing all the time, we get to the test, they don’t crash at all. And instead, when we get to the breaking thing, I broke too soon. So they wanted me to do it again. And so when I did it again, my tire, I broke a little too hard on the on the back tire and it hit a little wet spot on paint on the parking lot. And of course, motorcycle crashes. I’m on the ground, and I failed the test. Right? So my sister was like, I’m so sorry, like, that happened, (inaudible) want to reschedule and I said, oh, we’re not, we’re not rescheduling. (inaudible) I’m gonna get an E-bike. He can’t make me take a test for that. So like, there would be this movement like, hey, when is this getting rescheduled? And Lindsay’s like, oh, I’m looking into seeing when Lesley’s schedule can handled it. I’m like we’re not doing we’re still not doing it. So they can gang up on you. But you can, you can work it out.

Melissa Doman 44:18
But it comes from a place of love and care. You know? There’s different things that when we’re doing it, and she’ll even say to me, she’s like, I know this is difficult for you. You need to remember what we’re going for. And she’s so patient with me. And she teaches me stuff like all the time and I really see her like as an advisor, in addition to being you know, my online business manager, my assistant like she is, she’s like a trusted advisor for me.

Lesley Logan 44:52
It sounds like especially as like, which, whatever she’s doing evolves, sounds like she’d be a really great integrator and like could be the person who is your right hand who can then run people on the team so you don’t have to, you know, that’s like I’m sorry, I’m helping you grow.

Melissa Doman 45:07
We might have had that conversation literally a few days ago.

Lesley Logan 45:10
That’s huge.

Melissa Doman 45:12
Yeah. And so I think that, you know, she just like lives and breathes ops and like she just

Lesley Logan 45:19
Thank God for those people, if you breathe ops, you guys can work for anybody who’s got big dreams, I promise you.

Melissa Doman 45:26
She’s amazing. And she’s smart as a whip. And she’s funny. And I just deep, I deeply care about her on a personal level. And you know, she, I feel deeply appreciative that she puts up with me.

Lesley Logan 45:39
But I also just like a testament to the work that you do and the work that you’ve put out there, because it does attract people who want to work with that, and who want to be part of the vision, like the impact that you’re making is really huge. And you can’t you make a big impact by yourself. You have to have people that are that see your vision, but because of who you are, and how you’ve been putting yourself out there and the way that you have been, unapologetically, and really voicing why we have to talk about mental health, there are people who want to be part of that impact. And so you have to like celebrate yourself a little bit.

Melissa Doman 46:15
Thank you. I appreciate that.

Lesley Logan 46:16
You’re welcome. So we’re gonna take a brief break, and then we’re gonna get those Be It Action Items and also the Chewbacca impersonation.

All right, Mel, where can people find you, follow you, work with you, get your book?

Melissa Doman 46:31
So my website is melissadoman.com. I’m also on LinkedIn, melissadoman on LinkedIn. On Instagram my handle is @thewanderingMel one word. And my book is available across all major online retailers. Amazon’s the best place to get it but if you don’t want to feed the Bezos machine, it’s also available, you know, Target and Barnes and Nobles and all that. And, you know, if you feel like you need me to come in and crack some heads, no pun intended, to enable mental health at work conversations in your business, please reach out, I would love to help.

Lesley Logan 47:11
Thank you. Okay, you’ve given us a lot, you gave us like some great tips on how to talk about things, but bold, executable, intrinsic target steps people can take to be it till they see it. What do you have for us?

Melissa Doman 47:22
When it comes to mental health at work, awareness is great, action is better. And I think that when it comes to changing what conversations look like, it’s one thing to have the intention to do it. And it’s another thing to create the impact. So decide how you’re going to speak differently about your mental health at work, or how you want to support others and in a different way. Because, you know, you may not be able to make a big dent, but any dent is helpful.

Lesley Logan 47:50
Yeah, yeah. I like that. I like that. I think, I mean, we talked about at the beginning of the episode, in case you guys fast forward through the intro, because you’ve heard it so many times. I do say, action brings clarity. So like, you know, it really does. And so I think like, yes, talk about it, and then like, take the action and you’ll understand more and more, you’ll have more clarity around what to do next about the impact want to make.

Melissa Doman 48:16
There’s a reason that my tagline on my website that I trademarked is “Awareness is great, action is better.” And I have to give credit again, where credit is due. My husband works in product marketing, and technology evangelism, and he’s helped me so much with helping to shape my message and I always tell people, I have a crush on my CMO. I pay him, I pay him with respect and my company. He’s amazing. He’s so amazing at what he does, he does product marketing and technology evangelism for a salesforce partner company and I’m very deeply proud of him.

Lesley Logan 48:57
That’s amazing. That’s so cool. You guys are a dynamic duo.

Melissa Doman 49:01
We’re trying to be, trying to be.

Lesley Logan 49:04
Okay, can you do the Chewbacca voice for us?

Melissa Doman 49:07
Oh god.

Lesley Logan 49:08
Because I know, I know I have Star Wars fans especially my husband’s going to listen to this. But also Hi Katie and Rachel and

Melissa Doman 49:17
Okay. Ready?

Lesley Logan 49:31
That’s amazing. (inaudible) they’ll love it and it was beautiful.

Melissa Doman 49:37
Oh my god. I literally do that like as a reward to a workshop participants like if there’s, if they’re really engaged and not distracted by tech and they’re like really present really, really doing the workshops with me. I dangle that as the carrot at the beginning and I go if you’re good, if you participate, I will reward you all with this at the end. I would hold it. I would hold it if they don’t.

Lesley Logan 50:11
Yeah, I, well, thank you for sharing with us. And also because, hello Be It babe, you are a good listener, you made it all the way to the end. So thank you so much. Mel, you are the best, I just adore you. I’m so glad we got to finally meet in person, I got to have you back on the pod talk about what you’ve been up to. Because it is it I think is really important for people to see someone can have, like, publish a book and like make magic happen in their business and actually get those big, huge gets. And then also they keep going. And there’s new, new moments of not just imposter syndrome, like going outside of your comfort zone and doing big things that scare you and then getting other big opportunities. So I cannot wait for your episode to come out with Kim Scott, because I’ll be listening to it.

Melissa Doman 50:54
Thank you so much. I’m so happy we get to meet in person, to come back on the pod and yeah, just really deeply appreciate it.

Lesley Logan 51:03
Yeah. Well, y’all, how are you going to use these tips in your life? Are you going to read her book? Are you going to help talk about mental health at work? Because you should. And please share this with a friend. If you have a friend who’s like even a leader or a person at a company who needs this, you know, this is how we get the word out there. And the more people who talk about this stuff, the more companies actually have to talk about these things because there’s power in the workforce, really being empowered and knowing what they want to talk about and how they want to be treated. So please share this. We can spread Mel’s amazing word. And until next time, Be It Till You See It.

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Lesley Logan
That’s all I’ve got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over on IG at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!

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Lesley Logan
‘Be It Till You See It’ is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @be_it_pod.

Brad Crowell
It’s written, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.

Lesley Logan
It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.

Brad Crowell
Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music and our branding by designer and artist Gianfranco Cioffi.

Lesley Logan
Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.

Brad Crowell
Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.