How to Set Boundaries

With Narcissists

Ep. 269 with Lesley & Brad

“If you are really good at your boundaries, it’s really hard for a narcissist to take over.”

Lesley Logan

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Show Notes

Brad and Lesley revisit an enlightening conversation with Rebecca Zung, a leading authority on narcissism negotiation. Delve deep into the complexities of interacting with narcissistic personalities, the significance of self-worth, and the necessity of boundary-setting. Listen now for actionable strategies to handle narcissists and reclaim your autonomy.

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In this episode you will learn about:

  • The underlying drivers of narcissistic behavior and how to recognize them.
  • Effective strategies to end toxic narcissistic relationships and reclaim your life.
  • Actionable steps to navigate and protect yourself from narcissistic manipulation.
  • Empowering methods to establish and enforce healthy boundaries with narcissists.
  • Proven tactics to shift from a defensive stance to an empowered offense for personal freedom

Episode References/Links:


Lesley Logan: There’s nothing wrong with you. Everything about you is why they attach themselves to you. So you just need to really recognize the signs of when a narcissist is coming your way.


Lesley Logan
Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I’m Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I’ve trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it’s the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It’s a practice, not a perfect. Let’s get started.


Lesley Logan 0:16
Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It Interview Recap. My co-host, Brad and I are going to dig into the actionable convo I had with Rebecca Zung in our last episode. If you haven’t yet listened to that one now, you must, because you need to. Go back and listen to that one and then come back and join us. You can also listen to this first and then go listen to that. But y’all this is one of the guests that was on my like I want on my show. When we first started this podcast, I heard her on To the People Podcast. And I had her on my list (Brad: that was on the wish list). And then do you all remember when I had that girls’ weekend? I think I talked about this on the podcast. I don’t think she know how this worked out. I was on a girls’ weekend and with those girls, I just met on the internet and I said come out to Vegas and we had like a girls’ weekend. And she’s like one of the girls like well, what do you need? How can I support you? And I was like I want Rebecca Zung on my podcast not thinking she knew her. And she goes, oh, shoot she’s my friend. And I was like, what? You should go and text her. She literally texted her at the bar and Rebecca Zung said, I’m wrapping up my book. So reach out to me after September 1. And Carrie said would you prefer email or text? And she said email. So literally after like September 1, Carrie was like, and she’s one of our recent guests. She said, hey, Rebecca, she said, this is Lesley (inaudible) and now she’s on my podcast and yeah, crazy right? The interview was a while back, but she requested that it came out during her book launch, which you can go get her books (Brad: Which is pretty much now.) Pretty much now. So anyways, today is September 28, 2023. It is Remember Me Thursday. The purpose of today is to share the importance of pet adoption and shedding light on all orphan pets, waiting in shelters and rescues. Oh my god. (Brad: Yeah) I torture myself because I do look at the Nevada SPCA. (Brad: Yes, you do.) I know. I just I do and I like watch their videos. But I really

Brad Crowell 3:15
I was I was like, on offensive of getting that red nose. He was fucking cute. (Lesley: So cute.) He’s a good dog. Oh my god. But four dogs and two humans in a van. (Lesley: No, no) It’s too much.

Lesley Logan 3:29
We promised ourselves we would try out two dogs. (Brad: Oh) I’m sure it won’t stay that way. Because now three is too many. But you know, here we are. But at any rate, if you cannot adopt if you live in a place where you cannot adopt, you cannot foster which by the way you can be someone who fosters if you like I travel a lot, you can actually be a foster. And you can tell a shelter or charity like I can foster for these two weeks. (Brad: Right) You know, and then I’m going to be gone. And like you

Brad Crowell 3:58
or even if you’re not allowed, like let’s say you live in an apartment and you can’t have a pet. You can actually volunteer to just walk the dogs. (Lesley: You can walk the dogs.) I used to do that. Just drive down a mile down the street. There was a couple of shelters and they always needed help walking dogs.

Lesley Logan 4:14
Oh, yeah. We used to walk the shelter dogs when they were at the vet. That’s right. Yeah. Anyways, it’s I promise you like, especially if you’re lonely, especially if you’re going through a lot. There’s something really special about like, just taking a dog who has no family for a walk. Yeah, it really does fill your soul. They’re so loving and they just want to be loved. So anyways, the other thing is you can donate like find a charity that you can donate to because your money will help them help dogs get rescued and also help them get placed. Shout out to we listened to a podcast Keith Olbermann and every single night he actually talks about a dog in need. Yeah, and everything. Most of the dogs I would probably I’m not like a small dog person. But like I I love how he highlights them and so he can’t adopt them. Also, I don’t know maybe we should just like it’s Little hard for us because our podcast comes out. You know, it’s we don’t get to record same day. We don’t have the luxury of being Keith. But um, I do want to figure out how to like, I just keep going adopt this dog people.

Brad Crowell 5:11

Lesley Logan 5:12
So go do that this week. You may have caught that I was going live with Andrea Maida on YouTube (Brad: Over the past two weeks.) Yeah, yeah, it’s happening. So Andrea Maida and I are dear friends, and we used to do a YouTube series together, couples struggle is real. And then we did tequila, tequila talks. And then

Lesley Logan 5:28
(Inaudible) Pilates and tequila, y’all.

Lesley Logan 5:36
We just answered Pilates. We didn’t do Pilates and drink tequila. We drink [tequila] and answered your question. Yeah. And YouTube recently allowed different YouTube YouTubers to go live together. So we did one on my, my channel, one on her channel, and we’re answering your questions. And so check them out. You can find them on my YouTube channel, which is Yes, you need the @ symbol. I think it’s weird, but you know, it’s Google. They know what they’re doing. And then I believe Andrea is the same yes, you need the @ symbol babe. He’s nodding because I’m correct. If you’re watching on YouTube.

Lesley Logan 5:39
She’s totally right. Yeah, I’m impressed.

Lesley Logan 6:23
Yeah. So anyways, you can just go slashonlinepilatesclasses. It doesn’t work, you have to use the @ symbol.

Brad Crowell 6:27
Yeah, hers is not @Andrea Maida. (Lesley: No. It’s PilatesAndrea.) Oh, PilatesAndrea Yeah. Yes, that’s what it is.

Lesley Logan 6:37
I know. (Brad: Subscribe) Links will be in the show notes and you should like and subscribe both Ding, ding. That’s what the bell does. Ding, ding. So all that’ll be in the show notes. And then we are really even much closer to getting on a plane and going to Cambodia for our retreat.

Brad Crowell 6:55
I am so fired up like, I can’t wait.

Lesley Logan 6:57
Also because we have a couple like after the retreat ends, one of our retreaters are staying longer. And and the next retreat that’s starting up doesn’t really happen until that Sunday. And so I want to go to Kulen to the elephant thing.

Brad Crowell 7:10
Yeah. Well, I don’t know how we didn’t know this. But there’s an elephant sanctuary about an hour and a half outside the city. That the only one I knew about before was like 12 hours drive away. And I was like, well, that’s complicated. (Lesley: That’s not happening.) We never really even tried to plan that. But I just found out this one, just north of a Siem Reap. And it turns out our amazing tour guide Peach, she literally knows the people who run it. (Lesley: Of course, she does.) She goes there often. So you know.

Lesley Logan 7:37
Yeah, so we’re gonna we’re gonna make that happen. I hope my fingers are crossed. (Brad: I’m very excited about that idea.) No, no. Does that mean we can also go to the waterfall?

Brad Crowell 7:44
Yeah, well, maybe we’re there. Why not? It’ll be Saturday.

Lesley Logan 7:48
So that is stuff that we do. Obviously, that doesn’t always happen on the retreat. That’s something we’re doing after the retreat. But like, if you stay after the retreat, you know, and we’re there, there’s adventures to do. In fact, we don’t have to be there. You can go to adventures and stay at our place. So it’s super fun.

Brad Crowell 8:04
We do Airbnb that out when we’re not there with with retreaters. So yeah.

Lesley Logan 8:10

Brad Crowell 8:11
Yeah. And if you are looking for a spot to take your retreat to, we do all the logistics, and we have the whole thing set up where you can effectively take your group, we’ll handle all the legwork, and you can teach them your thing and then effectively run the program that we’ve created with the food and the touring and the experience and the the hotels and all the things you know all of it. So.

Lesley Logan 8:34
Yeah. And then November fourth and fifth I’m in Chicago with Erika Quest teaching a week of Pilates workshops. We were so excited to team up again. We’ll also actually be doing that in December. That’s gonna be a fun trip. Oh, I’m gonna have less oh, you might not know this. I’m staying later. (Brad: Come on.) I am. So it ends on Sunday.

Brad Crowell 8:53
I’ll handle the dogs, babe. I got this.

Lesley Logan 8:55
I’m staying with Peter. Peter Spinelli is gonna meet me in Chicago and we’re gonna do a couple days.

Brad Crowell 9:01
Breaking news. Breaking news, everyone. Internal family news here.

Lesley Logan 9:06
And when I come back, I’m gonna go to Arizona.

Brad Crowell 9:09
What? What do you mean? Where? Where are you going?

Lesley Logan 9:12
Oh, I use those points to get like an incredible hotel. My mom is coming out to visit.

Brad Crowell 9:18
I knew this. (Lesley: You knew this part.) I knew that part, but I didn’t realize that it was right after Chicago.

Lesley Logan 9:23
I’ll be. I’ll be home for 24 hours.

Brad Crowell 9:26
Oh, okay. Yeah. All right. I’ll just keep watching the dogs. Yeah, I got this.

Lesley Logan 9:28
Yeah, you do. This is payback for that month you were in Cambodia. I get one week. Anyways. But the things you can attend of that entire conversation is November fourth and fifth in Chicago. With Erika Quest, you’ll need to make sure you’re on our email list to get that information because I don’t have a link right now.

Brad Crowell 9:46
Go to

Lesley Logan 9:49
Yep. And you want to do that same thing to understand what’s going to happen with our winter tour because our winter tour we go from Las Vegas to Philly area (Brad: Yeah) and back which means lots of cities

Brad Crowell 10:00
There are so many. And honestly, this is going to be way different than our previous tours. I think there’s going to be a handful more locations, we’re going to be teaching workshops instead of just classes, this time around. We’re going to be bringing the decks with us. So and that’s, you know, we’re we are already sponsored by Balanced Body for this leg of the for this tour. And we got a bunch of other companies that we’re talking with right now. So it’s going to be an amazing experience. We cannot wait to announce the cities. Yeah. And we’ll be doing all that at the end of or close to the end of this. Probably right around when this is coming out, actually is when we’re going to be publicly announcing that so.

Lesley Logan 10:42
Yes, we want to be on those emails. Yeah. (Brad: Do it. Do it. Do it.) Because they’re all limited spaces. Yeah. Okay. Before we get into Rebecca Zung’s incredible advice do we have an audience question?

Brad Crowell 10:52
Yeah, we do. This one was awesome. We got a YouTube question from @WayneFurquharson9007

Brad Crowell 10:57
The way you said that it makes you think that they found a new way to say fuck you.

Brad Crowell 11:07
I know. I’m not sure I don’t think that (Lesley: It is Furquharson.) It could be Furquharson. (Lesley: Furquharson) I’m gonna go with that. We’re gonna go with that y’all.

Lesley Logan 11:18
I’m gonna Google the person. It’s an incredible, amazing question. So I can’t imagine that’s a fake name.

Brad Crowell 11:23
Well, it was a comment on one of our videos about comparing different like explaining the different pieces of a Pilates equipment. I said, Wow, that was amazing insight into different pieces of equipment, it’d be really nice to see some equipment comparisons. So you know, comparing the different chairs and comparing the performers, that’s really complicated, because there’s no place where there’s like a showroom of reformers. (Lesley: No, no.) So I don’t know how we would do that. (Lesley: I did say that in my response to that.) You did. You did. Yeah. But she said also recommendations for training providers. What? And then the question, What makes you an all around practitioner of Pilates? Do you need to study classical? Do you study modern? Is there like a scientific version of Pilates? Like, what is the best path here?

Lesley Logan 12:04
Yeah, so first of all, when it comes to training providers like and when I could decide if this is like teacher training providers, or like, who to take from, so if it is teacher training providers, you want to get my book, Profitable Pilates, Everything but the Exercises because the first few chapters are really actually talking about what you need to ask when it comes to becoming a teacher. So you pick the right program. As you’re asking, like, how do I find a teacher trainer? Or sorry, a teacher that can train me as a human being who just wants to practice Pilates and be an all around practitioner? Well, this is complicated.

Brad Crowell 12:49
Well, before you keep going, if you’re looking at that book, it’s

Lesley Logan 12:54
Oh, that’s okay. So um, so here’s, here’s the thing. I did a video on YouTube, about like, the truth about Pilates. And in there I discussed like, what you should be looking for when it comes to a Pilates teacher, because I think it’s extremely important that you are armed with how to how do I know that this person is the right teacher for me. And it doesn’t mean how many years experience they have, but their foundation of their teaching is important. So looking for looking for a teacher who has a comprehensive training is going to be really awesome. And you’re looking for things like in bio, you’re looking for things to say comprehensive, or 450 hours or more in their bio. Now, you because I know a lot of people teach Matt and listen to this. Hold on. I fucking love you. That’s how I got started. You’re an amazing teacher, I bet you’re the best at what you do. However, somebody

Lesley Logan 13:51
wants me an all around practitioner, ideally, they have access to their equipment. So I’m not this is not a diss on you. It’s just like answering all around practitioner question. As far as classical better than modern versus scientific.

Lesley Logan 14:05
You will, that’s going to be a little bit more of a personal like, like a personality style and also at finding the teacher that you feel sees your body best. I am a classical teacher. However, some of my friends are among the best contemporary teachers out there. Shout out to Erika, and Portia and Joy and all these people, Jessica Blount like all these people who are amazing at what they do, I would not say that I’m better or they’re better than me based on the style. What makes a teacher the best for you is their curiosity in your body and how it’s going and their ability to take you on a journey that makes you stronger than you were the day before. And so if your teacher is constantly telling you what not to do, they’re counting a lot. They’re overcorrecting, you feel like you do nothing correctly. That is not going to make you the best all around practioner. You are looking for people who can be a coach who can be a guide who encourage movement, and who are okay, letting you make mistakes and be on a journey. Brad is smiling, so I’m just gonna let him jump in.

Brad Crowell 15:11
While I’m just laughing about our last episode where we were talking about cults. You know, these two episodes came back to back. (Brad: Back to back y’all.)

Lesley Logan 15:22
But they’re also right after the pastor, so

Brad Crowell 15:26
Two pastors and former pastor in a row, Adrian and then Nikole. (Lesley: I know.) Yeah. (Lesley: And then neither, they’re not pastors anymore. Anyways.) No, but yeah, I was gonna say, I think that, you know, there’s a weird, there’s a weird there’s a weird what’s the right word? It’s, you know, acceptance, that in restaurants that the chef is a tyrant. There’s a weird acceptance that in the dance world that the teacher is so hard and harsh and crazy. And I think that all those people can go fuck themselves. Because that’s bullshit. And in the Pilates world, if you end up with a teacher who is, is like, this is the only way everyone else is wrong, then that they they’re wrong. They are 100% wrong. And I will happily tell them that.

Lesley Logan 16:28
And that happens on both sides of the contemporary and classical. I’ll suppose it’s not like

Brad Crowell 16:33
It’s not Yeah, that happens. That like the reality that was happening in that scenario is that they are creating division in the Pilates community. (Lesley: It happens in yoga.) It happens in yoga, happens, it totally happens in yoga. I mean, I, I experienced that personally. But it happens to Pilates. And I think it’s the worst thing that we can be doing to ourselves in this industry, is because we’re creating the division in this industry. And it’s wrong. It’s wrong.

Lesley Logan 17:03
And also like, it doesn’t allow either the client nor teacher to be on a journey to learn. And so I don’t you ask about scientific and I’ll say this, I know anatomy. I have studied it. In fact, it was a big part of my major before I switched majors, I have taken more than my fair share of anatomy classes. I don’t use anatomical terms ever when I teach. And it’s not because I don’t know them. It’s because in Pilates the whole body should be working. So I’m not going to talk to your rhomboids. Because I’m not going to talk to your Supersprint anus, I’m not going to talk to your prehensile whatever. I don’t know if you do that this is not a knock on you, if that works for you. But that is when as my teacher Jay Grimes, he said in Joseph’s Pilates studio he never once heard an anatomical term, the body was to move. And so you to find a teacher or an or teacher trainer, who it’s not about letting people just be sloppy, it’s about letting the body tell you what it means. If you let a body move without being micromanaged. And this is what I work with my photos and my mentorship eLevate, the body, if you let the body move, and you just watch it, it’s going to tell you what it needs. It’s going to tell you where it’s getting hung up. And then you get to ask yourself, Where else can I help them? Where can I do this? Where should we go right now? And you get to be this curious person.

Brad Crowell 18:30
I just want to say that the exactly the curiosity. I wasn’t there clearly wasn’t alive when Joseph Pilates was creating different pieces of equipment. But that curiosity is what kept him saying, Hmm, this person isn’t getting the thing. So what if I made another piece of equipment that would help isolate the thing or do the thing, right? I mean, if you go back and you look at the different, like, go go to Balanced Body go to like go to their library, Ken Andelman has been collecting schematics and like history of Pilates for decades. Right? So, Ken Andelman has been collecting, you know, all these schematics and everything for years. And they all have different, they’re all slightly different. He kept changing and modifying and changing and changing and changing. Right. So, you know, he didn’t I don’t even I can’t put words in his mouth. But I would imagine that there wasn’t one way to do the thing. Right, because he kept making new pieces of equipment to do the thing.

Lesley Logan 19:43
Well, yeah. And yes, and yes. Yes.

Brad Crowell 19:47
To get to the point to where he wanted them to be.

Lesley Logan 19:50
Yeah. No, like, if you couldn’t do it on the reformer. He would take you to the Cadillac, correct? Yes, yes. Correct. Yeah, I think that’s a great point. So anyways, to answer your question, It’s there’s no easy way to find the right teacher for you except to take from different teachers until you find one that you really like. But watch that video that I made on the truth about Pilates, and ask your teacher questions. And if you feel like you’re never good enough, then find a different teacher. If you are wanting to be a teacher, then go read my book, because the questions I give you are going to be really awesome for helping you for helping you find the right program that can make it the teacher you want to be.

Brad Crowell 20:28
Yeah, I mean, I not having gone down this path personally. But having edited this book, the questions that you ask, allow the reader to look ahead in the future and say, What do I actually want to do with my Pilates career? And then that question and the questions around in those first three chapters will actually allow you to say, well, maybe this isn’t the right program for me, or maybe this is the right program for me. And it will equip you with the questions to ask the teacher training program. So that you know what you’re actually getting. Yeah, so yeah.

Brad Crowell 21:04
All right. Now let’s talk about Rebecca Zung. Rebecca Zung is an attorney turned educator who specializes in teaching individuals how to negotiate with narcissists, drawing from her personal experience and professional expertise, and has authored the book Slay the Bully: How to Negotiate with a Narcissist, (Lesley: Which is out now you can go get it.) Yeah. fascinating conversation really made me think about my life and my experience with just people in my life.

Lesley Logan 23:11
So here is what I fucking loved. I loved it so much. Like, I don’t even need to talk about the rest of the episode why you should watch you should watch and listen to all of it. But I love this. She said they, narcissists, don’t attach themselves to you. Because you have so little value. They attach themselves to you because you have so much value. And so if you’re like, well, I have these fucking narcissists in my life. Oh my god, I’m like stuck with another narcissist. It’s, it’s because you’re so fucking awesome. And they see how they can utilize that. And I think that is a little what the most important thing to consider because we can get so down on ourselves if we dated another narcissist, or we keep getting sucked into a narcissist in our family or we keep working for one and we can’t stop it’s because it’s, it’s not because it’s you. Like, it’s not your fault that you’re fucking awesome. You just have to also like you actually just have to figure out how to recognize the signs and how to exit yourself out of those things. Boundaries are amazing.

Brad Crowell 24:13
Yeah, I think like speaking from personal experience, having like inadvertently surrounded myself with narcissists most of my life you know, I always appreciated the idea of being the person behind the person I was that’s what how we saw myself. (Lesley: Am I a narcissist?) No, I don’t think so. That’s the thing.

Lesley Logan 24:34
Well that but that’s because you like the person you’re the person behind this person most of the time. You are doing that, if you keep doing that, am I

Brad Crowell 24:42
But because of my operational, all that kind of stuff, right? Like, my like, that’s my you know, that’s my zone of genius is being able to do the operations I but I needed to do an operations for someone right. And so oh, I ended up working for a narcissist. being best friends with a narcissist being having business partners, like all this kind of stuff. And the reality is, (Lesley: Cause you’re so fucking awesome.) Well, thank you. Thank you. That’s what my point was ultimately is I’m awesome. No, that’s not my point. I appreciate that, babe, you’re amazing. Now the point is it wasn’t on purpose. No, you know, I, you know, and but but I also didn’t really understand what was happening. And unfortunately, those relationships ended badly. You know, where things ended up in like, like, like explosions and fireworks.

Lesley Logan 25:41
I guess I didn’t What I didn’t ask her maybe, is like, can you even in a relationship with a narcissist without a name badly? Like, it’s kind of hard. Like, I think as a person who cares? I think you’re always going to feel like it didn’t end. They’re never gonna let you let it end well.

Brad Crowell 25:56
Oh, well, it didn’t end the way I wanted them. Yeah, I didn’t actually want the relationships to end. Yeah. Right. And you know, but there was there was something like, inate like, in me, like that was like, I got to a point where I was like, I can’t do the thing anymore, whatever the thing is that needed to happen. And whether, you know, personal, work, business, whatever, like there was, it was like, it was guttural. It was like revolt revulsion to continue down this path. And I couldn’t understand it myself. And I really struggled with it for a long time. Because I actually had, you know, I cared for these people. And that was really, really challenging. And but I, you know, and I think that the thing of not blaming yourself, that’s hard to do, you know, because you walk away from a relationship that just hand grenaded and you’re like, What did I do wrong?

Lesley Logan 26:52
Yeah. And she said, you can’t actually blame yourself. They’re really good at this. Like they’re, they’re really, really good at what they do. Because they’ve been, it’s, it’s part of like, how they became a person in this world. So it’s like, this is their habit. And they, if you go back and listen to the whole episode, there’s not a single cult leader who’s not a narcissist, like they need people who are wanting to make this world a better place to put them up on a pedestal and help them achieve whatever it’s they want. So I think like, I think we’ve every single person listening, this has probably experienced or is experiencing currently a relationship with a narcissist that they’re stuck on and having a hard time with. And go listen to this episode, because she’s amazing. (Brad: Yeah, it was a great episode) and then probably read her book. And then you have got to get out of like, this is your fault. And that like you did something wrong, and instead start to take the steps to put boundaries up. One of the things I remember one of the reasons why I want to have her on the episode of the show, like, because how do you be till you see it, if you’ve like, got sucked in with a narcissistic relationship? It is because the only thing you can be is what they need you to be because they’re just gonna keep doing it. Right. And she, she’s just got some really great actual steps. It’s like, when you’re working with a narcissist, you’re never gonna win the argument. So if they emailed you a list of things you did wrong, like, emailing them back all the ways that wasn’t wrong is not they’re not gonna go okay. Like you just have to

Brad Crowell 28:25
It doesn’t fucking matter. I used to get these crazy fucking emails in all caps and red letters from my boss. (Lesley: That’s so weird. I can’t even read that really well, it just looks like it’s screaming at you.) No, but I would. I would. I was just like, changed it read to just emphasize Oh, yeah, dude. Yeah, it was like it was him shouting was what it was through emails. Right. And at first, I was like, oh, man, (as if the all caps didn’t) but it got to the point where it was so fucking often I just ignored it. I was like, This is him venting about a thing that I can’t solve. And so whatever, you know, and I don’t think that benefited our relationship.

Lesley Logan 29:02
But actually it benefited you. And also, like she even said, like this one thing that here’s one of the things that Rebecca Zung said, you don’t you’re not going to, no evidence is going to prove that you are right. So you have to if you have to respond back, it needs to be like the time like the simplest sentence. Okay, we’ll talk about it at 10:30 on Thursday. Right? Like not going point by point with them because that’s what they want you to do. And that’s how you always lose. Yeah, you will not win that Yeah. And even with one of the relationships that ended with you and a friend who’s a narcissist, that’s what they wanted. They wanted to go point by point like this happened on this day and they did this this happened on this and it’s like, yeah, all those things happen the way that he thought they happened, but we don’t need to go point by point the culmination the culmination of it all is that like, this isn’t working and you’ve been abusive towards me and period. Yeah. Anyways, I just I I want to reiterate that one more time. You are not, you did not put your you are not the reason. There’s nothing wrong with you everything about you, it’s why they attach themselves to you. So you just need to really recognize the signs of when a narcissist is coming your way.

Brad Crowell 30:15
It’s not your fault that you’re in a relationship with the narcissist.

Lesley Logan 30:18
No, they’re really fucking good at that. She said it she’s the expert. Okay, what did you love?

Brad Crowell 30:22
Yeah, love is relative here. But the thing that really struck me was getting out of a relationship with a narcissist is challenging and accusatory and personal and emotional. And she said, when she shared the wisdom from she had a business coach and a guru who, ironically guru from last week, but she said her business coach, what said, listen, it’s not what the narcissists say. It’s how it lands for you. Meaning you cannot take it personally. You can’t. It’s if you do, you will destroy yourself. You know, and what she started to talk about, which I thought was really interesting, was agreeing with how the narcissist feels without agreeing to the narcissist’s point. Right, and, you know, so if you’ve ever been in a relationship with someone who has borderline personality disorder, you know, or is a narcissist, it’s the same thing. Like, you need to acknowledge how they’re feeling. And they’re allowed to feel the feels. But what they’re saying is, might not actually be reality, and may not be true. And so if you listen to what they’re saying, then and personalizing it, you know, it may really, really, really hurt you. But you can’t let you cannot take it personally. Right. She talked about the Four Agreements, take nothing personally in the Four Agreements. Right. And, you know, you the way to have a conversation and to like, I don’t know, I think her book is about winning an argument, right?

Lesley Logan 32:25
She has, she has another like, she has other stuff out about winning arguments.

Brad Crowell 32:30
Yeah. Okay. And, and basically, you know, you have to acknowledge what they’re feeling in order for them to, like, take a pause. And so like, Hey, I understand what you’re saying. And I understand how this makes you feel. Yeah. And then you get to move on. And that allows you to not take it personally. Yeah. And that’s challenging to do. It’s really, really hard to do.

Lesley Logan 32:52
I think like, what really, this is, like, y’all, if you are really good at your boundaries, it’s really hard for a narcissist to take over. Because like your boundaries, using your boundaries, in the beginning relationship will let people know, like one of my clients, she is so friggin like badass about like, she tells a job. She’s like, I actually don’t work more than eight hours in a day. You don’t pay me to do that. Salary does not mean I overworked myself. She doesn’t tell them in the interview, she waits until she’s hired. And as soon as they do that, she’s like, Hey, I’ve noticed over the last three days, the amount of meetings you’ve had me in have required me to have caused me to not really get my work done in the day. I would just like you to know that because if you’re gonna keep putting me in six hours of meetings, and I have six hours of work, I mean, they’re not gonna get the work done. Not gonna be the meetings. And they’ll often like, oh, well, like you’re part of the team. She’s like, I am on this team. And being part of this team means the amount of work I can give you eight good hours a day. And I’m like, Are you like, both was a part of as like, oh my god, like, are you gonna get in trouble?

Brad Crowell 33:57
Are you gonna get fired, like

Lesley Logan 33:58
It’s not what I get paid to do. (Brad: That’s true.) That’s not it. Yeah. And so like, so she has crazy bosses and, and like she does not let them push her around. And she doesn’t let them abuse her time. So it makes it really hard for them to push these like narcissistic things on her because she’s like, that’s a boundary. I don’t let people cross.

Brad Crowell 34:20
It was it took me years to get to that point at my job. Where, oh, where my boss would like, what? What threat? Well, he would just hit drop. Do you remember the right hand grenade into a conversation of like, what about this thing that like we haven’t talked about in four months?

Lesley Logan 34:37
We were at a dinner, and he threw a hissy fit on a cell phone password. And like he was texting you. It was like very early on in our relationship. It was something about his daughter’s cell phone. It has nothing to do with you. It’s like not even your job. There’s like someone else who does this. And he was like having a hissy fit about this whole thing. And we had to go. We’re at dinner. Like there’s nothing you can do. about this.

Brad Crowell 35:00
Yeah, like what I would do in the meetings, like what I got to the point of because I was tired of getting gray hairs was, I got to the point of saying, hey, yesterday, you asked me to do this. Today, I blocked out time to do this. And what you’re telling me today is priority is going to affect the thing you asked me to do yesterday. So I am super happy to do either one. You tell me which one is priority, and I will get that done. I think it will take me four hours to do this project and six hours into this project, your call. And when I got black and white with the amount of fucking time it would take to do the things that he was asking me to do. All of a sudden, my life became a whole lot easier. Because it’s he’s like, it’s funny. It’s not unreasonable when you put it that way. But he’s unreasonable if you don’t, because the expectation is, you’re just gonna get it all done. Right. And if you actually spell out what that means, and you’re not being angry or confrontational about it, you let them make the decision, then I was able to actually survive the intensity of it. Because I effectively

Lesley Logan 36:08
You just kind of disarmed them. You like,

Brad Crowell 36:12
yeah, let him make the decision. You tell me, man, I’ll do whatever you want. You know.

Lesley Logan 36:16
That’s such a great gift. I think, you know, then again, it comes to boundaries, though.

Brad Crowell 36:20
Yeah, that was, it took me four or five years to get to the point where I was like, I can’t fucking work till two in the morning when I’m at home anymore. Not doing it. So yeah.

Lesley Logan 36:30
Yeah. Anyways, oh, she also. You also like had, I just want to say like, hurt people hurt people. I think that’s a really important thing to add in here. Before you go to the Be It Action Items. Like, you know, it’s

Brad Crowell 36:45
She said, people treat you the way that they see themselves. Yeah. You know, and that’s part of that, like, the one if they’re lashing out and being accusatory about something, you know, it’s very likely that that’s how they see themselves.

Lesley Logan 37:00
Yeah. I just, I mean, like, my goodness, we’ll have to have her back. But we all need to read her books. And then we can have her back, BookBub. Just, I, it’s, you know, it’s so easy for those who are listening to this you. I felt years ago, I remember driving so I was in Orange County. And I remember hearing the guy who was probably a narcissist actually. From Do you remember on MTV, like there was there was a they had a show. It was like a nightly radio show. And it was with Oh my God, it was the doctor who Oh, my gosh, there’s two guys.

Brad Crowell 37:34
I was definitely not allowed to watch MTV.

Lesley Logan 37:36
I was in college, but there was you guys. Somebody shout it out (inaudible). They’re like (Brad: Drew Pinsky.) Yes. Drew, Dr. Drew, and it was this. They had a late-night radio show that would also air on MTV. And it was with I can’t think of his name. I think it’s a big forehead and he ended up with his own late-night show (Brad: Loveline.) I used to love Adam Carolla. Yes. I mean, yeah, I don’t think he’s I think they I think both have been canceled or at least one anyways, um, Dr. Drew was in an interview way back. This was a radio show so it was like this is way before podcast you guys I was in Orange County it’s in college. And he said that there was an increased this is what there was no Instagram there’s no Tiktok there’s no snap that at the time it was like just MySpace. And like Facebook was like barely a blip on our screen. Just like MySpace right? And at that time he said social media is causing this increased narcissistic behavior. (Brad: Hmm.) And now it is insane like some of my friends I would consider it like a narcissist in a weird way just because the way they like see themselves and the way they do things. They’re not a narcissist to me because like, they see me as like an equal with them and like, you know, I’ve got boundaries. But at any rate, there’s putting yourself out there as as this person who knows these answers these things, it’s really easy to either become a cult leader or at the very least slightly be a narcissist and so it’s it’s because of the way the world is causing us to put ourselves out there. That’s like, you can be raised like this and I also think parenting so so I just I really wanted to have her on because in being until we see it, if you are sucked into a relationship with a narcissist, they will cause you every single day to not be the person you want wanting to be. Brad’s got the facial look, he’s looking something up. Are you just discovered loveline in this moment?

Lesley Logan 37:47
No, I just decided to search for does social media increase narcissism (Lesley: And when did they say?) well I don’t know the study or whatever. This is just a LinkedIn post but the answer is yes. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know if it’s I don’t know who backed it up. But you know, there’s there’s like (inaudible).

Lesley Logan 40:00
Do social media create narcissism or are narcissists attracted to social media? Interesting.

Brad Crowell 40:05
That’s another question.

Lesley Logan 40:08
I’m sure there’s a study, someone could send it to us, okay.

Brad Crowell 40:13
All right. So finally, let’s talk about those Be It Action Items. What bold executable intrinsic are targeted action items can we take away from your convo with Rebecca Zung?

Lesley Logan 40:24
Are you going first?

Brad Crowell 40:25
I’m gonna go first. So, she said she talked about the three approach, which she said are step one, don’t run from the narcissist. Step two, make a U turn. And step three, break free. Right? So step one, she advises you to start creating boundaries unless it was talking about that this entire episode. Such as you cannot speak to me that way. Or, like your client said, I’m happy to do that tomorrow. But it’s after six o’clock. Right? So observe the situation. The hardest part of it is to like, be objective, not subjective, right? Subjective means it’s what you’re feeling objective is what a third party would feel. She says she emphasized that it’s not not to feel bad about choices made in survival mode, you know, because it’s so weird. Thinking back to my experience, where I finally drew boundaries, where I said, six o’clock is my line. I’m not working after six o’clock. And that took me years to get to that point. Then I got a phone call one time. And I was about to go live on a show. I was hosting a show. (Lesley: Oh, yeah. You used to have a radio show.) Yeah, I used to have a TV radio show on the internet. And 10 minutes before we were about to go live. I got some fucking dumb, bullshit, like, explosion, unnecessary thing that had to be resolved that exact second with my immediate boss who was reporting to the owner. And I basically told him, I can’t do it. And he freaked out on me. And I said, I will call you tomorrow. I’m about to go live. I cannot be having this conversation right now. You’re fucking with my headspace. I have to do what I’m doing in my life. And my life is not my job. And that was like, he basically wrote me off after that conversation. And like, you know, and but he couldn’t fire me because the boss wouldn’t let him. But it was the first time that I ever actually drew a line in the sand. You know, so. And I actually felt like that was survival mode, because that’s not my normal. I don’t usually like confrontation don’t usually get into confrontation. And that was the that was the very beginning of what I started to embrace confrontation in that job. Because in order to get out, I had to start being confrontational. So you know, I like that. She says, don’t feel bad about the choices you make in survival mode. Step, you’re gonna need fucking counsel also after that.

Lesley Logan 43:00
Sidenote. I saw someone the other day, like, Oh, my God, I’m so sorry. Like the pandemic. I just got in touch with you. And I was like, you know, apologies for not staying in touch with people during the pandemic, period. End of story. Yeah. Everybody in the world was in survival mode. Absolutely. No apologies. I’m not worried about it. If you have been staying away from me for a year, because you’ve been embarrassed about that. Please. No.

Brad Crowell 43:26
Yeah, she said, step two is to make a U turn. Right. And she started explaining her slay method, which I thought was super fun, which is strategy, leverage, anticipate, and then you focus on you. Right? So strategy, you can’t start creating a strategy until you set those boundaries. Step one, right. It involves creating a vision, a goal and action steps in your life, you need to understand what you actually want for you. Because if you don’t know what you want for you, you’re going to just we asked their vision.

Lesley Logan 43:58
That’s the whole thing, right? Like, they’ll say, like, if you don’t have goals, someone else will make sure you have a goal. (Brad: That’s right.) So like, that’s just how it goes, yeah.

Brad Crowell 44:05
Then you need to, you know, then you need to identify what leverage you may have in the situation. For me, what I was getting out of my job quitting that job, like he used to sue people who would quit. So how did I quit without getting fucking sued That was I remember that that was a big, it was insane. Right? How do you get out of that? Right? And knowing that it was such a cult, it was, oh, there’s no question. But what I realized is that the number one priority for him was family. So I leveraged my family. So step, so part of the slay method is leverage. And I leveraged my family and my appeal to him when I left was my wife is starting a business. And I need to support her in that business. Every single thing he ever said to me for the years that I worked for him was why he does things for his family. And he could not say, you can’t do that, because he’s stands for family. So I leveraged that that was the leverage I had in that situation. (Lesley: You’re so smart.) Took me a long time to figure it out. I appreciate that. Number three part third part A is anticipation be two steps ahead of the narcissist understand what type of narcissist you’re dealing with covert, grandiose or malignant. I don’t know the difference between those three, I didn’t look those up. (Lesley: She goes into those, I think in her book.) In her book, she talks about them, so it’s worth reading. And then finally, why is focusing on you prioritizing your mindset shift from being on the defensive to being on the offense. And that, you know, it was like, it just took, it actually took me getting to a breaking point of like, I can’t keep living like this, I’m gonna die, to get to the point where I was like, I need to prioritize me, then I started setting boundaries, right, then I started trying to play on my escape, effectively, right. And that leads to step three, which is breaking free. The true breaking free is understanding that there will always be narcissists in this world. So if and when you extricate yourself from the situation you may be in right now, which could be a mom could be, you know, a sibling, could be a boss, it could be a partner, a business partner, you know, like, the reality is, there are narcissists. And now that, you know, it will be easier to identify them in the future. But again, having somebody to talk to about it, is going to really benefit you. So what about you?

Lesley Logan 46:24
So I love this, she said. She said, If there’s only one thing she could leave people with is that you alone define your value. You alone define your value. So you have to, you have to like and that’s that can be really hard. Like she talked about a story of how like, she was like afraid that she’s gonna be seen as inconsistent or a flake. Because her her jobs like took her all over the map. And her coach said, Well, you can let people see you as a flake, or you can present your self as the attorney who has a financial background.

Brad Crowell 47:01
Yeah. So she went from being an attorney to a finance, like consultant like, like personal finance consultant back to being an attorney. Yeah. And she she said, I’m, I feel like people are looking at me like you just jump around. What are you even doing?

Lesley Logan 47:15
Yeah. And she, but because she had that experience. Now she’s the like, she’s the best attorney who’s got that experience. And so she can really see things from a different place. By the way, she didn’t have any Yeah, she has like the number one like divorce firm. Like, she’s like one of the like, it’s fucking amazing.

Brad Crowell 47:28
One of the top firms in Florida and she was, you know, some of her clients were billionaires.

Lesley Logan 47:34
Which, when you’re doing divorce, you gotta know the finances real Well, anyways, she said, people will think what we tell them to think, right? I mean, this goes back to like, the most certain person in the room wins. So she said, like, how you show up is everything. This is being it until you see it, guys, this is being it till you see it. Your presentation and demeanor dictates how people perceive and interact with you. So here’s the deal. This is something oh my god, I’m so grateful I was in debate team in college, and my in my speech in debate classes. They said, if you make a mistake in a speech, don’t acknowledge it. No one knows you made a mistake until you say, Oh, I forgot to say or I wanted to say, oh, I want to do this. That’s right. Just either if you can find a way to add it back in somewhere else than do or just leave it out. And like that is a kind of a thing. Like when I am presenting workshops

Brad Crowell 48:27
It takes thinking on your feet to do that.

Lesley Logan 48:28
It really does. I when I’m presenting workshops, like of course, if I’m not looking, if I don’t have my notes in my hand, I’m going to go off the roadmap and go, Oh, I forgot this. And I don’t say Oh, I forgot this. I say oh, I want to make sure we do this or hey, let’s actually take a moment to talk about this. Some sort of way segue to bring that topic in. Because if I go oh man, I forgot this. Oh my like, how, like, when I was in retail, I had this one guy who worked for me. And he had a lot of shit going on his life. And at one point, he was like, in between housing, all this stuff. I was really worried about him. You would never know. Because he said when he crossed the threshold from the marble of the mall to the oh my god, there’s like a special kind of like a tile tile. It’s like yeah, like travertine tile. He like came in and he he told himself as soon as he went from the shiny marble floor to the travertine tile, he would go it’s showtime. And he and it’s and he would just do it show time and that would let him know that in this moment how I let people see me and so people you guys he ended up getting a job as one of the like highest managers and LVHM store which is like one of the stores like for Louis Vuitton, you know Balenciaga, Bulgari-owned store so hard to get a job in one of those companies, let alone a manager right off the bat. And it’s because he decided how they’re going to perceive him. He was really good he did. But his resume might not have gotten that job, but he told them how he wanted to be perceived. And I think that’s so important. You can you can walk into an interview or you can meet a new client and you can act like oh my God, I hope they liked me or you can go, they’re fucking gonna like me. Here’s how I show up. Here’s how much I’m worth and be really clear about that. Anyways, August is on the show right now, if you’re watching on YouTube, because he is just having a needy moment. He’s having a day guys. But I hope that this episode really helps give you permission to like, be an amazing human being and not blame yourself for the shit the narcissists you’ve let in your life. And also that she helps you guide you to getting narcissists out of your life. I’m Lesley Logan.

Brad Crowell 50:42
And I’m Brad Crowell.

Lesley Logan 50:43
Thank you so much for listening, and we want to know how you use these tips in your life tag Rebecca Zung. She will love to hear if you bought her book. Let her know and us know what your favorite takeaways were. And until next time, Be It Till You See It.

Brad Crowell 50:55
Bye for now.

Lesley Logan
That’s all I’ve got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over on IG at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us help others to BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!

Lesley Logan
‘Be It Till You See It’ is a production of ‘Bloom Podcast Network’.

Brad Crowell
It’s written, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.

Lesley Logan
It is produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.

Brad Crowell
Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.

Lesley Logan
Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals and Ximena Velasquez for our transcriptions.

Brad Crowell
Also to Angelina Herico for adding all the content to our website. And finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.

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