Ryan-Mae McAvoy: We build up, like you said, we build up these stories good, bad, in between and it’s, it’s really a disservice to our own self to be like, but can I change the story? What? Like, how can I change the story? Some things can’t change. There’s loss, there’s events that happen, but also you can look at that and say, okay, but what can I do now?

And that’s really what I’m just trying to put out there is what can you do now? And how can you change and how do you be more than just what people say you are.

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INTRODUCTION

Lesley Logan
Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I’m Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I’ve trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it’s the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It’s a practice, not a perfect. Let’s get started.

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Lesley Logan
All right, babe, how are you? Welcome to Be It Till You See It interview. I am so thrilled for this interview this week because it actually goes on like’s little journey and I’m really excited for it because when I first was introduced to this person I was like, you know, that could be cool. And then I was like reading about her and I was doing a little bit of research. I’m like, you know what? Actually I think this is really cool because I too often have had people who’ve like, like said goodbye to the nine to five middle finger to the boss. Peace out. I’m on my own. I’m being until I see it.

But we don’t often interview people who are like, yeah, you can work for a place and you can actually like tell people that you would like it to be a little bit more like this, or you could be a little more like this. And also, what I’m really excited for you to hear is the humanness that can be at a corporate job. It’s possible. I’m not saying it’s happening at your job, but it can. And maybe there’s a way that you can make that happen or maybe this interview will help you seek that out. And we also talk about so many other things. This is like a nice little fun conversation that I am thrilled for you to listen to.

Ryan MaE McAvoy is our guest. Melissa Doman is the person who introduced me to her. Her interview is in the show notes. It’s all about like, why we need to talk about mental health at work. So, today’s interview is just fun. It’s a lot of fun. I learned a lot. I, I think as a person who doesn’t work at a corporation, I have my own corporation.

And I don’t yet have like a whole HR team. But you know, we’re growing into that space, as a person on that side of it, I felt like this interview gave me a lot of insight on like, what is possible, like what I can create. Because I’ve gotta be honest, like when I thought, oh gosh, we have to have HR team.

Okay, gotta button it up, gotta find someone who’s like, you know, you know, here’s your paperwork. But that’s not true. So it doesn’t have to be that way. And we all listen to this podcast whether you work for yourself, wanna work for yourself, or you work for someone else. We can’t actually be the change that we wanna see in places where people get to be more human being, which is I don’t think a phrase, but I’m gonna make it one. So here is Ryan Mae McAvoy. I hope you enjoy the conversation. I hope you have fun. I hope you feel like you’re talking with two girlfriends and we wanna know what you said on the other side of it. And then her Be It action item is just really awesome.

It’s actually something I think we all need to do, no matter who you are, where you work, what you’re up to, and what you wanna be it until you see it. Here’s Ryan Mae McAvoy.

Alright. Right. Be it babe. Here’s the deal. I’m so excited because today’s guest is actually a referral from another past guest. And, um, y’all remember you loved her. I’m now losing my voice because, I’m picking up on our guest today, Vegas Voice, the sexy. Yeah. So, um, We’re just gonna blame it on Vegas. She was just in Vegas.

I live in Vegas and sometimes that casino just takes your voice away. Anyways, today’s guest is Ryan Maid McEvoy, and what I’m so excited for you to hear about her is we often have entrepreneurs, people who’ve like left the nine to five goodbye, peace out word to your mother. I’m working for myself now, and today’s guest is actually like, no, I’m in it.

I’m in the space and I’m making it work, uh, for me and I really wanted to share that cuz not everyone has that opportunity or wants to. So, Ryan May, can you tell everyone who you are and what you’re rocking at?

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: Yeah, I am Ryan May McEvoy. Uh, my corporate self is the head of people for blackor.io. We are a SaaS company based out of New York.

Uh, I say that loosely. We actually don’t have an office. We’re very much like work where you are. Um, I have been doing kind of HR plops in many, many fashions in a very weird, non-traditional way. I worked at an animal hospital for several years. I worked at a ski area. I moved to the Silicon Valley and kind of got that like, oh, so you’re good at like being an EA and did that to like break back into the people space, um, and really just not.

Having that like, oh, I just wanna be like self-employed and do the van life. And it’s, I think we miss a lot of, like corporate still has a lot of potential and we need people to speak up inside corporate walls to change. Not because we need to everybody to be in corporate, but there still has to be. It’s always like, there’s always gonna need to be the firefighters, the policemen, the garbagemen.

Everybody has a spot. And so what do we do in our ourselves to make that spot as cool and as like open and wonderful as possible?

Lesley Logan: Oh my God, I love this. And also so much to like things that I’m gonna highlight there. Um, especially because, um, First of all, I, my friend was in a college, like, I’m gonna go work in hr.

And I’m like, what does that even mean? Like, what does that, what do you do? Like make sure people like clocked in and out on time, like signed their contracts. Like you a babysitter? Sometimes. Sometimes, yeah. But also like what sounds so cool about hr? Is that you have, you’ve been able to like kind of cool into different unique spaces.

Like it sounds like you’ve been able to like work in the, an animal hospital, but then now you work for this other company and you can kind of like. Put yourself in a creative space if you want to. But I wanna highlight, you said this, you’re changing the way you’re changing the corporate world from where you are.

Like I think people are like, if I leave it and I go Van Life it, which by the way, the New York Times, the whole article on like, is Van Life really awesome? And the girl’s like, this is terrible.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: I feel like, like day three, I’d be like, so this, my Instagram looks fire, but I’m gonna need like, To just go home. (Lesley: Yeah.) I’d be like, we made it to Reno guys. Time to just pack it back, pack it back to the West coast.

Lesley Logan: Um, but um, but I, I love that because I think often we’re like, oh, I have to leave to make things better. But actually you can, things don’t change if you leave, like sometimes we, sometimes it is a better, better option to stay and like make the changes from where, where you are if it’s possible.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: If it’s possible. There’s a couple things I really wanna capture on that. Um, I think leaving does have a powerful impact. Um, and it doesn’t mean leaving has to be leaving the corporate world, leaving the, the space you’re in. Um, I love tech. I love startup. I think it’s a very creative new age, kind of.

There’s cool ideas we’re trying to problem solve, um, but sometimes it is leaving. I left an employer before Black Thorn, uh, that I loved. Personal relationships. I, these are people I still hold near and dear to my heart. I have a lot of love for them, and I had amazing mentors that came in. I’m like, but what about you?

Like, you are not happy. This isn’t filling your cup. And I think sometimes you do have to leave to like do that change. And you have to find your spot and something I, I actually highlighted this on LinkedIn a while ago. Our leadership team and our team is amazing for me. It’s incredible. It is. It works for me.

It is the best thing. Are there people, even in the HR worlds, I’m like, oh no, you, you would be so unhappy. We wouldn’t be stoked on you. That’s not a fit. And I think that’s where change comes from is being able to say, why does this work for me? But if it doesn’t work for you, and that’s okay. Um, and now finding my personal philosophy on HR is, Hrs now turning into people ops and we’re touching a lot more stuff.

And I always joke, there’s like old school HR and I think of the lady from Monsters Inc. Where she’s like, where’s your paperwork? And that’s still really like kind of the, the brand we have in a lot of places. And it’s so much, it’s so much time like trying to resell yourself. Yeah. And then be like, it’s not, it’s not just paperwork, it’s not just compliance.

It’s helping people get benefits from medical care. It’s talking about diversity, inclusion, and every day is a new adventure and every day is learning and finding new things. Even last week we had an employee highlight something I, I don’t wanna share cuz I wanna respect their journey, but I was like, it’s not even on my radar.

I didn’t even think about how are we not talking about this? And I. I do tend to get fired up. So now I’m like, this is my cause and I’m gonna go like talk to everybody about it so we can fix this problem. But I think that’s where people mistake us for like, oh, we’re just checking your time card. We’re just making sure you’re not doing things.

Lesley Logan: So, okay. This is so fascinating because like I think in every industry, no matter who’s listening and where are they work, like there’s the old guard of whatever that job was and then, and then there’s like, Opportunity to kind of make it your, make it what is calling to you and it and, and that, and it obviously, it requires you to be in a place that honors that, but, but it sounds so cool.

So can you just, like, for people who are like, hold on, back up. What’s hr, whenever I got called there, I was getting written up. Um, what, what is, what is like, aside from like the Monsters Inc. Lady, what are like a typical HR and like what is it that you’ve made HR be so that you. You get excited about it because you’re like excited about it.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: I’m excited about what I do and I think that’s the thing is like typical HR is, oh, you’re just here to protect the company. You’re just here. My most like engaged LinkedIn post was one our, I was like, you go, here’s the common misconceptions. We only care about the company. We only are here to protect them.

We are here for the company, but we also, I know every good people in HR person that I interact with. That’s because we know it’s people’s paychecks. It’s dance lessons for kids. It’s the European vacation you want to take for your 25th, your 30th, whatever milestone in your life. If there’s not the company that’s a lot of people’s livelihood.

And so it’s easy to like kind of villainize it and say, oh, well you just wanna protect the company. I. Maybe, but why? But what is my intent behind it? If it’s like, oh, I just don’t want us to get sued, that’s probably not great. Um, I, I don’t want to think that most of us come from that place. I think we do think about the people.

Um, and then it was, oh, well you’re just, you’re a corporate and you wanna follow rules. I’m also an employee. I still get a paycheck. I use the medical benefits I take sick time. And that really kind of gets moved away from. The human element of what we do. Mm-hmm. And there’s a lot of hard news that comes with what we do.

(Lesely: Yeah) If you’re doing layoffs, if you’re terminating someone, if there’s an injury, if someone’s not performing, yeah. We’re involved, and that’s a conversation. Um, my childhood best friend wanted to work together, and I, we had this really open conversation where I was like, you have to understand if it doesn’t work, I have to be in that meeting.

I don’t have to agree personally. I can know your side. I can know their side. It’s, that’s my function. That is my function is being there to like, here’s how we transition, here’s what that conversation is. And I’m not always comfortable. There are people, I’m like, I, you can’t, I won’t refer you because I don’t wanna ruin that.

I would never work with my husband. Like, you guys are so amazing. I’m like, she’s a rockstar. Cuz I’m like, we have to have our separate things. Husband is like the friendliest, nicest guy. Everyone loves him and everyone’s always like, oh, it’ll be so cool if you guys work together. I’m like, but how do you separate that?

(Lesely: Yeah) And some people can, I know there are people in HR, they work at the same company. Like we’re in different departments. It doesn’t matter. I, I have, I’ve, I have such a, like a not good poker face. If we were doing a layoff or he was getting terminated, there’s no way. I’m like, Hey, what’s for dinner? Also dinner.

Oh, you, there’s no way that would be like possible’s your like, how’s your resume? Like, no reason. I’m just like, just like curious. Like this is normal conversation. Right? Like, we never talk about this, but I’m just like, maybe just shoot that to me on like my personal email tonight and we’ll just take a little gander.

Like I never wanna be in that position. Yeah. But I also think that makes good HR people,

Lesley Logan: You know, here’s what like I am what I love that you’re saying, cuz I know that like, I do think, and I have thought, oh, HR is this weird thing that companies hire to be there for the employees, that really it’s protect the company.

But the way you’ve explained it is like it humanizes it a little bit and to me it’s almost like a Venn diagram. HR is kind of like the overlap of where like the company needs to be protected, but so do the employees and like that’s where you live and wow. Do you get to be like one foot on an island and one foot on a canoe at all times and like, I hope you have good inner thigh strengths.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: Well, I, I, (Lesley: together) listening to you, so now I feel like I have to go a Pilate slice. I have to go try this. So maybe that’ll be my, my new set.

Lesley Logan: Yeah, yeah. Side plus on the reformer is up for you. But, I think, like, I think it’s what your highlight is also just like extremely, it’s like being a human being in your place of work is so important.

And if you are not able to be a human being where you’re working, then. It’s a really good sign that maybe you should go talk to your HR department and see like if you’re in the right place. So like, lemme just ask if I had an HR, I mean obviously not every HR is you, but if I was at your company and I was struggling, like are you like able to see that I’m in the right position?

Are you able to see like if I should be doing a different kind of transfer, are you also able to say like, Hey, this isn’t the right place for you. Like what? (Ryan-Mae: So we try) What do, what do people do with, with you if as an employee, other than say, Hey, I would like you to think about this over here. And that’s the thing.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: So we try, we are multifaceted. We have an anonymous tool where people can say like, Hey, I’m just not feeling this. It, like, the first question is like, how was your month? How are you feeling over the month? And you, I think it’s like n very unhappy, happy neutral. So we utilize those tools. We do quarterly surveys.

Our leadership, and this is something I I’m beyond grateful for, this is a village effort. I don’t take all the credit for this. It is not just me. There’s amazing humans that I think the universe just kind of put us all in the same spot and was like, let’s go, let’s do this. Our COO, our CEO, everyone’s like, Hey, if you’re here and you’re unhappy, let’s talk about it.

Is there another rule for you? Maybe? Is there not? Maybe, if you just say like, Hey, I actually think you’re all terrible and I don’t wanna be here anymore. We’d rather you tell us, we can figure it out. Instead of you just like randomly quitting in the middle of something. Cuz that’s hard for you.

It’s hard for us. I also just don’t know if people feel safe to utilize that. We really try and we mm-hmm. All of our leadership is open about like, here’s where I’m at today. I always sometimes joke our, I’m a cat mom. It’s like a weird thing. Our cat like fell one day and I thought his leg was broken.

And I was like, I have to be offline. Like, we’re going to the vet and I’m just like crying and all this. And nobody was like, What is this? What’s going on? Everybody’s like, okay, do you need anything? Are you good? Like mm-hmm. We really try and make that. I don’t know if it’s util obviously, like, I’m like, I want everyone to feel safe.

We do try and say like, if you don’t wanna come to me, here’s an alternative. If you don’t wanna go to your boss, here’s like, everyone’s kind of allowed to go where they need to go. Yeah. But I don’t think people are still super comfortable with that. And I think it comes from this is a new wave. This is a new wave of people.

People you have. The older generation, and I don’t, I don’t wanna like classify him for like boomers or whatever because it’s, there are people that are argued to that act this way because it’s how they were trained. And I think it’s a matter of, we’re just coming into this new thing. Five years ago, mental health was kind of being talked about.

Now you have CEOs going, oh my gosh, I was struggling with my mental health. So I’m doing these like psychedelics under doctor care and I’m like, What, 25 year old me was like, oh, we wouldn’t, we don’t talk about that. Like that’s not, and now it’s, so it’s, we are still learning too. Yeah. And I think the struggle is some of us are like, yes, let’s talk about it.

Let’s change things. Let’s build a different version of a company. And other people are still like, oh, they’re gonna sue us if we talk about mental health. They’re gonna, they’re gonna abuse leaves. And so I think you have to.

Lesley Logan: Well, it sounds like it’s coming from an, It sounds like where you’re at, there’s a, an inherent trust.

Like we believe in what we’re doing and we want you to be part of it and enjoy yourself while you’re here. And like, I think that like it does come from people at the top being human or at least having someone who can remind them that they’re human. And I think, you know, it is true. Like I just heard the mayor of San Francisco on an interview and she was talking about like, this is what she’d like to have for Ben, the guy who actually used to give everyone flowers and now he’s has dementia and he lost his house.

Like people, the, the people that I hear talking about mental health, I’m like, whoa, hold on. So I think it’s so important, but I also think like, it sounds like it’s also two parts. So if you’re listening to this and you work for a company and you’re like, oh, my company doesn’t like that. It makes me wonder, like sometimes I think that, like, are we also the employee, are we also saying, Hey, here’s what I need.

Like are we actually saying what we need to the right people in the company, or are we just assuming that they won’t give it to us and, and just. Putting up a block

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: I think that’s very much, there’s just this mental like, oh, I don’t know. Melissa, you mentioned Melissa Doman.

Yeah. I send her book to everyone. I, I’m obsessed. We have like the coolest uni universal cosmic crossing of paths and really that’s the fine. The thing I find myself saying the most is I can’t solve problems I don’t know about. (Lesley: Yep) So, If you’re not comfortable coming to me, is it the anonymous tool?

Is it you going to someone else? What does that look like? Because I can’t, if I don’t know what’s happening, I can’t help it. And then the second part is always be very, very upfront. I will tell someone, like I said, we had an employee ask some really great questions last week, and I was like, Hey, it’s on my radar.

I’m not promising to change this in a day. A year, but I now know about it. I will keep updating you. And sh she was very grateful. She’s like, we just talked about it. That was very like, yeah, helpful. And I think the biggest thing I would encourage anyone, and it’s not even just hr, it’s if you have a question ask, like is it uncomfortable sometimes?

Yes. We did a four day work week, which is actually, I think how Mel kind of like pushed us together. I’m all about employee perks, the benefits, and I was like, you guys are out of your mind. This is not gonna work. We’re 15 months in and it’s working. Wow. And you’re doing four days a week? Yeah, we do. We have Fridays off for people to just like have a life and I think, but it was more than just one piece and it’s something, it becomes a bigger thing.

It’s the seed of the garden. To being more than just your job. Just a parent, just a, a neighbor, just a whatever it is you identify as. And for me, I had a really rough 2021. I had some health issues. Our wedding kept getting post cuz of Covid. Life was kind of all over the place. And I joined Black Thorn. It was kind of funky.

It was weird. And I was like finding myself ready to like, we have to do this for the employees and our leadership being like, yeah, we trust you. You got this. And I was like, whoa, whoa, I don’t have to like fight you. Oh, okay. That’s weird. And, and I explain even now, like I’m almost a year and a half in and I keep talking to people and I’m like, I still sometimes look at ’em like, do I get to do this?

This is really how things are going. And I think it seeds into other things I. I gained a bunch of weight in 2021. I had some really bad physical challenges. Our CEO is one of the most incredible human beings I’ve ever met in my life. He’s super fit, and so I always felt self-conscious about it, like I felt very self-conscious about it.

And we did a miles challenge in the fall of 2022. I’m also very competitive, so I was like, I’m gonna do this. I’m gonna win and it’s gonna be great. And. I remember him and I were, were messaging and I was like, yeah, I did five miles. And then like, I saw your pace and it took me like an hour and a half and you did it like 40 minutes.

He’s like, but five miles is five miles. Why do you care? You did it. Yeah. And I was like, whoa. And so it’s, and it develops into more things. Like I got up Monday morning, I’m in Las Vegas, I’m in this great hotel room, it’s a party town. Got up and walked on the treadmill and I just like sent him a message and I was like, Hey, I want you to know like you affect more than just work me.

(Lesely: Yeah) I know now that 30 minutes in the morning, if it’s treadmill, if it’s going outside and listening to a podcast, if it’s going outside and having a phone call before I kind of start my day, that time and that piece that I’ve created is really meaningful to me and I need it. Yeah, and it’s something that is just really incredible and I think that when we have that openness, And we all talk about our struggles cuz he’s very much like, I don’t want to people just talk to me cause I’m CEO or be afraid to talk to me cause I’m CEO.

Lesley Logan: Yeah. I think like, okay first of all, if you’re like wondering who Mel is, you guys will link her book in the show notes. We’ll also link to her episode you guys, I picked her up for the show.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: If you don’t like your HR person, I will anonymously send her book to them. Cause I have been known to do like some also a little petty.

Lesley Logan: Oh yeah. Let us know. Or you could, or if you’re listening, just un honestly. Yes. I a guitar person. Yeah. But, it is all about talking about mental health at work and why we have to, and also it came, it’s a great episode on like, like wellness shaming, which can happen at work one, everything. But, so I so just wanna put a pin on that.

You feel like, who is Mel? That’s what we’re talking about now. I wanna also say like, you know, the stories we tell ourselves are like, so huge. Like, like, so it’s like if we’re telling ourselves that I can’t talk to hr, And HR is over there going, gosh, I really wish people talked to me. And also minding me saying, Hey, come talk to us.

But you might be hearing cuz you’ve just told yourself a story. So it’s like really? You know, it’s important for you wherever you are to listen to this and like, understand what you want and like go say it and then understand that they might be able to do it tomorrow, but like at least say it so you know it’s been said and you can then find out who they are and how they’ll operate and if it’s gonna work for you because maybe you don’t need to leave or as you mentioned earlier, maybe you do.

Man, oh, we had an episode on stress with Dr. Bender and she talked about how whenever we’re feeling stressed out as human beings, we like to reason, we like to make up a reason and. Then that reason becomes, oh, well I got stressed out if my boss left the room. So actually it’s my boss that stresses me out.

Now, it might not have been your boss at all. It might have just been like something else that happened in your brain triggered something, and like then you’re stressed out. So then you’re leaving your job because your boss, you think your boss stresses you out. But really, it might have just been like the food you ate that caused stress in your body.

Like there’s a lot of things. And so it’s like we have to really be mindful of like how we’re feeling and then. Being okay with being a human being, feeling those feelings and then talking to somebody about it so that we can actually go, oh, you don’t have to feel shame about it taking however long it took you to five miles, because actually you did fucking five miles and that’s pretty awesome.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: Exactly. And I think sometimes like we our own, my therapist constantly reminds me, he’s like, well, the relationship you have with yourself is. The most permanent, it’s 24 7. Like if you wanna walk away from your pet or your child or your husband, you can probably, hopefully take two or three minutes at the minimum, if not more.

Lesley Logan: And I think it applies to more than work. I think speaking your truth, like I don’t think it’s the permission to go out and be like, I hate your shoes and I think you’re tacky. I do think you have to speak your truth, like, Hey, I’m not comfortable with this. And I think that’s something, I was actually telling someone about your podcast yesterday and I was like, she did this episode about the 40 for 40.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: I just turned 39, and I had someone be like, oh my gosh, you’re gonna be 40. Like, how does that feel? I was like, I’m so stoked. I’m so, so stoked because my thirties, like, I look at how it started and how it’s closing out and I’m like, it can only go up from here. Yeah. Like it’s only gonna go up from here.

And really, It’s because I really learned myself, like my good, my bad. And being able to be like, I’m just being an asshole right now. Like, this is just me. Like I’m just this, I’m sorry. Like I, and sometimes you don’t know in the moment, but I think there’s a lot of power professionally and personally be like, hey, wasn’t my best self.

No excuses, just wasn’t my best self made a mistake. Here’s where we’re going now. Yeah, and I think that that, but I think it applies to more than just hrs or C E o. I mean, you do Pilates and you’re a podcaster and you do all this other stuff, and there’s probably a voice in time that’s like, well, I’m on this, should I do this too?

And I think there’s something really powerful to be like, why? Why can’t I do this? Yeah. I, five years ago would not have spoken out about, yeah, I think you should be able to go to your boss and be like, Hey, va, that wasn’t okay. And this is how I feel. Yeah. Now I might sometimes do it a little aggressively and have to be like, Hey, so I should, I should have toned that down.

But I think we, we build up, like you said, we build up these stories good, bad, in between, and it’s, it’s really a disservice to our own self to be like, but can I change the story? What? Like, how can I change the story? Some things can’t change. There’s loss, there’s events that happen, but also you can look at that and say, okay, but what can I do now?

And that’s really what I’m just trying to put out there is what can you do now and how can you change and how do you be more than just what people say you are. (Lesely: Yeah) Not a pun on the name, but they kind of was.

Lesley Logan: Yeah. I love this so much. You know what I, first of all, what I’m loving and I hope those who are not working in a corporation are like actually like seeing this cuz like as an owner of a company like I.

First of all, I’m con I’m, I’m aware that like, especially as a woman in her forties who may or may not be perimenopausal, like I’ll be in a meeting and I’m just like, this meeting, I’m, I don’t wanna be in this meeting. (Ryan-Mae: I don’t wanna do this anymore.) This meeting sucks. Whenever we have this meeting, it sucks.

And my husband, whose CEO is like, yeah, I think financial meetings just suck. And I’m like, no. I think at some point they should not suck. I would like, I want to have a fun one. I wanna have like a fun finance call. Yes. But like, I think, um, Being a human being is really hard, and I think sometimes whether or not you are the person listening who’s running a business and it’s solo and you’ve got a VA or you are an employee somewhere, like it is hard to be a human being because we all think we need to be better than whatever we decided.

Or we have been told we need to be better and may or may not been given the tools to do that. And there’s just all this pressure and the more we can be honest with how we’re feeling and like acknowledge like, oh, I was actually really an asshole in that meeting. Like I was like, you guys, I am just, I’m not in a good space today.

So I think I’m just gonna take myself out of this meeting. Thank you so much. I’m gonna, I’m gonna go now cuz I gotta go cry in my room, but it’s gonna be, it’s not your fault.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: Yeah. And I think that there’s, that’s powerful though. That’s extremely powerful, especially because it pulls into other things. Oh, well she’s just being hormonal so she can’t run a company or he’s not allowed to have emotion cuz he’s a man, or dads shouldn’t be on parental leave and things.

And it ties into so many factors and we joke. I, I’ve been working a lot. My husband’s fortunately been able to pick up some of the house stuff and somebody’s like, wait, he does the laundry? I’m like, well, he wears the clothes. So yes, he does. And sometimes we don’t do laundry for two weeks and we just wear, like, I’ll be wearing a concert t-shirt because them out of like options.

Yes. But I think that like it plays into so much more than just corporate. It plays into personal and something I really try, I don’t believe in resolutions cause I always break ’em. Yeah. But I always focus on like one thing that I really wanna improve. And one year it was like I just stopped drinking soda or pop, depending on where you’re from because I was like, I’m just, this is like, this isn’t healthy and like it’s not good and it like, I just don’t wanna do it anymore.

And I’m just like, okay. So that’s my, that’s my thing for, I think it was 2019. And in 2020 I found myself having some really pivotal relationships. I probably bit off more than I can chew, not knowing what was coming early down 2020. Yes. But I really decided, I, I default to anger. My default emotion is anger.

I get frustrated. I want to cuss, I wanna yell, I wanna throw things. I wanna be like up in the mix of like, oh, they suck and they’re this and they’re that. And, and I really was like, I need to get to a place where like I, maybe we don’t see eye to eye. Maybe we’ve had a falling out. You can. You can be over there.

I’ll be at my table. It doesn’t mean I wish you get hit by lightning or anything. Mm-hmm. You just don’t have a speed, a seat in my table anymore and that’s okay. I’d rather have a table that’s genuine and supportive, but it also means, it doesn’t mean I have to be like, oh my God, she’s the worst. Like, can you even believe?

Lesley Logan: Right. You can just let it go. Yeah.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: So it’s just, so every year I work on something like that, and this year I’m really trying like authenticity, like I’m not saying that right. But yeah, being super authentic. Like I know I’m too much for some people.

I’m loud. I have a terrible body mouth. I hopefully, I love that you’re in hr. Like I love everything about you being in hr. All right. I’m like the anti, I have a sticker in my, I was like, I’m not regular hr, I’m cool hr. But literally I like, I’m trying to be my, and I. I have to like put myself in check and be like, there are people you really admire.

They’re a little soft spoken. They don’t, they don’t love. And I constantly joke, I’m like, and then I like Kool-Aid man out through the door. I’m like, Hey everybody, what’s up? Do this. And having to learn like maybe they don’t dislike me, but maybe I’m not their flavor.

Lesley Logan: Yeah, like it’s, there’s all these different Kool-Aid flavors. You might not be the right, yeah,

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: It might not be the right one. And I try, and I’m trying really hard to incorporate that into everything. Like, if you’re a business, do I wanna spend my dollars with you? Do I believe in your principles? Do I believe in your vendors? And even it’s brutal out there. We all know what’s going on with the economy.

We all follow the news. I feel so bad for salespeople. They’re just, they’re trying so hard and you don’t wanna pull them. Sometimes y’all, I, I gotta call him out. Like we had a gentleman, he emailed me on Thanksgiving via LinkedIn and was like, I love everything black do’s doing in the culture and the, the Boric life balance and the best.

I’m like, okay, you’re not in the us maybe, or I don’t know, but it’s Thanksgiving. So like, I’ll get to you Monday. And then on Sunday he was like, did you read my email? Or what are your thoughts? Like really just gotta like connect in synergy and jive. And I was like, sir, if you actually were authentic and read anything I’ve ever written, I have been out for four days and I sh I’m not going to respond on your pitch.

Even if I need your product at this point I’m out. And I genuinely hope like you tone down the hustle, you find a company that works for you and doesn’t want you just to grind 24/7. Cuz it was really sad and he like called me out. He was like, I emailed a prospect and he like made this big LinkedIn post and everyone kind of agreed with me. I was like, You respect people’s boundaries?

Lesley Logan: Yeah. I mean like there’s awareness of yourself, an awareness of like not everyone’s going to like you, and then awareness that not everyone’s going to like you. So when they don’t like you, it’s not personal. And I think that, that’s a really incredible thing I wanna highlight, like I love how each year you pick something cuz it’s like a be it till you see it.

Okay, this year I’m gonna be it until I see this song, dogs gonna have pop. Okay, this year I’m gonna be it till I see it as someone who like, lets go of relationships that no longer serve me and it doesn’t have to be a big deal. And now you’re like, okay, I’m gonna be it till I see it in my authentic way.

Like I’m gonna like, this is how I feel this, I work for a company that also believes this way. And so we want. We’re gonna hire people, we’re gonna, we’re gonna buy from people who believe this way, and I think everybody, no matter where you are in your work life, we can all be until we see it in the brands we interact with and the companies we buy from and the things the, the, the, the pages on social we engage with because all of that is information that we take in and then we go off to work or whether it’s for someone else or ourselves.

And then we tell ourselves a story based on like these 17 things that like connected all at the same minute as you’re walking into work.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: And then you pick the one and you’re like, that blue shirt that John has just pisses me off every time I see him. And you’re like, (Lesley: Yeah), is it it really that, or like, does he happen to just like, you got cut off in traffic this morning and he was the first person you saw, like (Lesley: Yeah)

it’s just really, and it, again, it plays into such bigger things. I, the world is so opinionated right now, and we all have our side and we all have our right and we’re all, and I, I get it. I have firm beliefs. I have things that I am not gonna waiver on and things I’m not gonna compromise on. Sometimes I don’t need to yell about it, and that’s something I’m learning.

(Lesley: Mm-hmm.) Other people do need to yell about it, but I’ve also noticed by kind of stepping back, the conversations I’m having are opening doors that I never would’ve thought because I can hear more. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I can hear more about someone who, I’m a straight white woman, there’s a lot of things I need to learn, and it’s really just like opened up the doors for those conversations and I’m like, wow, I’m actually like harder into this and I’m learning things.

And now you get on the other side, everyone’s got an opinion. I know when I travel, people are like, where are you from? I live in California. Oh hmm. Are you gonna come and jack up our real estate prices? I’m like, probably not. I don’t know. Like this is cool, but no, maybe I just look at realtor cuz that’s what I do not cuz I’m like trying to like single-handedly destroy your economy.

Lesley Logan: It is the, it’s the most hilarious thing. Okay. This is a total side note. Y’all we’re gonna go on a tangent. I was in, I was in a different state in an Uber and I said I was from Las Vegas and, and the person started talking about something that I like, didn’t really actually agree with, and I didn’t want to like, I didn’t want to get in an argument with them.

I’m an Uber, (Ryan-Mae: like dropped off on the side of the road) just trying to get, I’m just trying to like get to where I’m going. I really should. Like, I really, it should just say like, I don’t wanna talk to you. And it’s not cuz I’m an asshole, just cuz I got the other things. I’m in the Uber for a reason anyways, so I just said, you know, before that I was living in Los Angeles and the whole conversation just stopped and I was like, okay, well that’s one way to end a conversation you don’t wanna have.

But it’s also hilarious because like, just because you’re living from someplace, moving somewhere doesn’t mean you’re trying to jack up the real estate. Everyone, people are allowed to move.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: I noticed this a lot. I have a, one of my dear friends is a veterinarian.

Will not tell people because like it’ll be the most random. Be like, what do you do? You’re out like a social thing. Oh, I’m a veterinarian. I just happen to have this picture of my pet’s butt. Does that look normal? And you’re like, well, (Lesley: Yeah) and then it, I’m sure people do it with you. They’re like, oh, you have Pilates.

I had this instructor and they were terrible. Or, oh, answer my HR question. I do this with, actually, we mentioned Mel previously, and I know we’re trying to make this whole episode of her, I’ll text her and be like, I need your professional opinion in the mental health space. Are you able, or like, I just need you to be my friend.

Like, and (Lesley: Yeah), we actually brought this into our marriage. Like obviously in hr I have some, some skills and some knowledge. So my husband will have a work challenge and I’m like, okay, do you need like wife me or do you need HR me? Because I need to know what lane to be in.

Lesley Logan: Yeah. And this all keeps coming back to like, I, I, it just comes back to like making, like honoring the pace that you’re in and not everything has to be an argument and not everything has being antagonist again, not everyone is against you.

People that you might think are on the opposite side of the aisle of any like opposite of be of your boss, opposite of the aisle, however you vote. There’s actually always a Venn Diagram of like, we all just want, we want the world to be here tomorrow. Like, that’d be really awesome. And if you are in a workplace as an employee, of course your boss wants things to work out.

Because then they can pay you. (Ryan-Mae: Yeah) So of course they wanna hear like, they want you to work out here ideally, cuz it costs a fuck ton more to hire someone else.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: Oh my God. So does the refill, the backfill is, is a real thing, but it’s also just like, and I think that’s where my, my passion comes from is like there’s, we get labeled and it’s, oh, you’re, you’re a woman, you’re in California, you’re in Vegas, you’re this, you’re that.

And I don’t. We’re more than that. We’re all more than that. Mm-hmm. Every, I don’t care what, what you believe in or any of that, you’re not just that one thing. Yeah. Maybe you support that one thing that I’m like, ugh, not so much for me. But what are the other things that maybe we do agree on? Yeah. Even if it’s something small or even if it’s just like, again, finding the self that you need to serve in that moment is something that we have to, and the intent, the intent is a huge thing.

And I love that you mentioned that because we find in, especially in the people space, did you have a toxic workplace? Have you come from a boss that was just probably really awful to you, maybe even unintentionally, and they didn’t realize it, okay, we’re gonna support you. We’re gonna try and set you up for success.

It’s also, you have to come to the table ready to like not assume every I still to this day, if I’m randomly dropping a meeting on someone’s calendar, we’ll send them a message or something and saying like, hey, I’m grabbing time. This is why. Because, yeah. If anybody’s getting like a random meeting from their HR leader, they’re like, well that was, that was a good run.

So I try and be intentional with my communication cause I don’t wanna cause anxiety. (Lesley: yeah, yeah) And it was, my CEO was a really great example when I first started. He like, I think I was like doing something. He’s like, Hey, do you have two minutes? I’m gonna call you. And I was like, oh, I’m in so much trouble.

I don’t know what I did. And he’s like, why do you, why did you assume that?

Lesley Logan: Because we all do. Because everyone, all do, all do. So everyone just tell people why I need 15 minutes of their time. And do not say to pick your brain, just like actually say, I need, I have, I would like to talk about X thing. And people (Ryan-Mae: exactly) will actually say yes to meanings.

And that’s like, and I’ll be like, hey. Or if it’s something a little sensitive, like, Hey, you’ve said you’ve got some struggle. You told me that thing I’m mentioning in the calendar, it’s gonna be called this or it’s gonna be this. And most of the time I’m gonna give away some of the secrets. HR people don’t come for me.

If you’re getting terminated. HR is not usually the one sending the meeting. We just kind of like come in from the back and are like, Hey, we’re here too. So that’s actually, there’s a lot if that helps anyone’s fears. It is very rare. It does happen. I, I can’t speak, I do not speak for every organization.

But most of the time, and I, I also encourage people cuz we’re busy. We’re, I, I mean, I send things out. If you’re not sure, ask if you would rather take two minutes and be like, Hey, we’re you asked me to connect, or, hey, you seem short in that email most of the time it’s easily explained away. (Lesley: Yeah) And I think that that’s something we don’t feel powered to do just in life in general.

(Lesley: Yeah) Like it’s very, it’s very hard to be like, you just seem really snippy via text and they’re like, what? No, I, I, I was at the grocery store, I was in the car, I was using Siri and.

Lesley Logan: Yeah, it’s like, it, it’s like if you either, either we all need to stop pretending that it’s about us all the time, or we actually have to bring it to their attention. That, that felt a certain way is everything okay?

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: And I, I think in the workplace, especially, like, I try and say, I say this to myself, I, I give this advice to employees and to fellow management and stuff in a company. None of us are really the star of the show. Like, even if you go like Steve Jobs, like everybody knows him from Apple.

Yeah. He was running the company and he was doing, like, (Lesley: he didn’t make the phone). He’s not building the phones. And like, that’s the thing is I think like it’s, it’s easy and again, I, this is advice I give myself when I’m like, everybody hates me and they’re super mad at me. I have to be like, you’re not actually like the hero slash star.

You’re, you’re a supporting player in this movie that we’re making together. And it’s, it’s sometimes easy to be like, okay. It’s okay. Yeah, and I, I think that we all inherently are our own hero and we are all our like own superstars, so it’s easy to be like, oh my gosh, I bet you that Leslie and Mel were talking about me before I came on the podcast, and Mel like warned her and this and that.

Instead of being like, no, Mel probably was like, Hey, you should talk to Ryan May. Like she’s got some cool views. That’s the of it. (Lesley: Yeah) It’s easy to build it up, like you said, it all goes back to we create this narrative. And sometimes changing the narrative to ourselves, even what we say to ourselves mm-hmm.

Is, is hard. And there was a, there’s a book someone gifted me, it’s actually about parenting and I was kinda like, this is weird, just growing up again. And it talks about, as a parent, how do you change what you’ve come from? And it really just kind of, it’s very heavy, like into the generational trauma and stuff.

But it was very much like, okay, I had kind of a weird childhood. There was some stuff. It’s a lot. Big proponent of therapy if you’re not your best self. But it gave me some insight on like, I can actually just choose to not be upset about that anymore. (Lesley: Yeah) Like I can choose to not carry that on like

Lesley Logan: We should I’ll read that book, whether you’re having kids or not, because take, it’s like a great thing to even like, Take into the workplace and take into, or working for yourself, which you can tell yourself some whoppers, Brian, may you somehow have managed to make HR sound so fun.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: And, there’s a lot of dark sides to it too. There are some, in most industries, there’s some not great people. But honestly, if you, if you aren’t sure, just ask.

Lesley Logan: Yes. Okay. That, like right there, that’s the title of the show. Okay. We’re gonna take a brief break and then we’re gonna find out where we can find you, learn from you, and also your beat action names.

All right, Ryan, may, where do you like to hang out? You said LinkedIn? Is that your jam?

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: I mostly live on LinkedIn. I’m a little bit hard to find cuz I, I have, it’s just Ryan Dash May with an E and then the letter M and the Lord’s P H R which is a certification for professional and human resources. I do live on Instagram.

It’s mostly cat photos, so if you’re looking for like hard hitting. Professional content?

Lesley Logan: No, we got some cat lovers. They’ll just come there for the cat.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: It’s literally like, usually like cats. And I’m, I’m slowly becoming like a very much, I wanna get my somnia at some point. That’s like my next career move.

So there’s usually like heym a winery here, Hey, I’m doing this. So lot of memes, I use humor

Lesley Logan: Oh my God, I wanna go back to being a social media person who just put up pictures of my dogs and tequila and some memes like, oh my God, what if that could. So well and it, I missed 2005.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: Right. I’m like sometimes it was so much simpler. Yeah. But yeah, I live on LinkedIn and I actually, I love LinkedIn. I think LinkedIn is becoming like more of like my favorite social media, which is really weird.

Lesley Logan: Yeah. Brad is gonna want to tell like pick your brain on that in a big way. Cuz he’s like really convinced that way we should like do some stuff on LinkedIn and I’m like, I, I’m just so, I got so tired of being sold, like, I’m not gonna even say the company’s name cuz I don’t want ’em to come for me. But the, you know, I discuss all of them. There’s being sold every single,

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: There’s no one, there’s, there’s the 10 ones that are like, you said you liked yoga here we offer these 40 packages. And you’re like, that’s. Okay. I think I would love to talk Brad about that cuz I am a very big proponent of LinkedIn and I think the community is being built and there’s so much stuff you can see that you’re like, oh, I never thought of that.

My new personal passion project in the HR space is second chance hiring. You made a mistake when you were younger. You have a crime. They’re so, I, I could go for hours.

Lesley Logan: I’m obsessed like you guys. I need another podcast if we’re gonna talk about this because, I’m obsessed with Second Chance Hiring and I have a family member who literally cannot get a job he is overly qualified for because of something he did at 18 years old.

And I’m like, okay, then we have to find. A criminal defense attorney and try to get this expunged from your record. It’s been 20 fucking years. You haven’t done shit since. Like, and that thing is crazy. And you look at, that was the thing I always joke of. He was like, oh, did you after this? I was like, maybe I’ll go to law school.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: And you look at public defenders and they’re lacking. And so then you get a lawyer that usually bills $500 an hour and they’re like, oh, you’re pro bono for this guy. He’s not giving you his a game. And so I’m actually doing some volunteer stuff with a company called Good Call, New York.

They have an algorithm right now that if you are arrested in New York, they’re gonna start going across country. They’ll get you connected with Law Enfor, law enforcement representation, whether it’s an attorney, illegal aid, something just to get you on the right track, no charge, low cost, and there’s some orgs just doing some great work, honest jobs outta Denver.

They literally are a talent platform management for finding like, hey, you have a criminal record, you know that you acknowledge it. Let’s get you placed. (Lesley: Love this..) it’s just such a passion project.

Lesley Logan: Guys. We’ll forget these links and I’ll put ’em in the show notes. Yeah, I’ll send them please, because, I’m like, I think.

Some, there’s a lot of shit going on in the world and you gotta pick something that you’re passionate about and like, it can’t, we all, like, if we all just donate to the world, like it’s not gonna work. Like we have, like there’s all these little problems at home that you can actually make a massive impact on. I love what you’re talking about.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: Well, and it’s not even like dollars at point. Like I literally reached out to Good Call and I was like, hey, I know you guys are small. Here’s what I can offer. I would love to give you 10 million to fund your project. I don’t have it. I’m sorry.

So we’re doing those kind of things and I think it really just comes from LinkedIn now as opposed to LinkedIn. Even in like 20 19, 2020. I was connected with them cuz someone liked a post that was talking about it. And they’re CEO Jelani, who’s an amazing human, who I should totally connect you with.

Was just like, he was like, Hey, here’s my email if you have any input. And I, I just like emailed him. It was very random and cold connection like, hey, I’m some lady from California, you know, nothing about, but I’d really like to help. Oh, please do. Cuz I would love to highlight them cuz like, I would know how you even start something like that and like, It’s so, there’s so many good orgs.

I’ll send you all the links. Yeah. And I wanna highlight them, because I want more people to know and how like somehow support them. Okay. Real quick, cuz we can obviously talk forever. You’re amazing. (Ryan-Mae: ditto) Yeah. Be It action items, bold, executable, intrinsic, targeted steps people can take to be it until they see it. What is your tip for them today?

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: Do not label yourself as one thing. You are a multifaceted human being. You are a, your career, you’re a parent, you’re a spouse, you’re this. Serve the version of you in that moment that serves you best? Yeah, sometimes I am not. Ryan-Maeerson, I’m Ryan-Maeand I just have to be in that role.

And sometimes I’m Ryan Mae who’s having a really hard mental day that needs to be the cat lady on the couch with her Netflix and some mac and cheese. And I think the more you deny the layers of yourself, you become less authentic in each version. Mm-hmm. And you get consumed. I could let my job consume me if I wanted, cuz I, I, I like it.

There’s a lot of work to be done. I fortunately have now colleagues and people outside of my life that are like, Hey girl, take a break. How you feeling? What are you doing? Did you eat? Are you, are you watering? Did you go on a walk? Like, what are you doing? And I think you have to really acknowledge and honor even the bad parts.

Like you were saying, you hate finance meetings. I think you can be like, okay, I’m LL in the finance meeting. This is the worst version I’m gonna be today. Let’s get it done. And that’s okay. You’re serving that version of yourself. Yeah. Yeah, that’s, that’s okay. I, my husband (Lesley: team, I hope you just heard that.I get full permission just to be that person.) They’re gonna message me on LinkedIn and be like, now you have to be our HR lady. I’m in HR, this, but yeah, so it’s, I think you have to deserve the good, the bad, and you have to acknowledge all of it. And you have to learn what is that there are parts of ourselves we’re not gonna love.

It’s unfortunate. I, you can get any woowoo, love every moment of yourself,

Lesley Logan: No, I had a therapist. Best advice she ever give me. She’s like, you don’t have to like that version of you like, like there’s like that, there’s an eight year old LL who likes to like freak out about money whenever I have it.

And I can actually go, you know what? I heard you. Thank you. You can just go back to your seat. Appreciate it.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: I think that’s like, I think that’s okay. Like I struggle. I had some parental stuff and I think it’s very like disarming to people when I’m like, yeah, my parents weren’t the greatest.

Sometimes it’s not discounting the good that they did. Right. It’s okay. It’s also, I say all the time when people are getting in new relationships and stuff. The partner I am to my husband is so much better than the RM that dated all everyone before. Yeah. Long term short term, because one, I saw the value in our relationship.

I liked myself a lot more and I was more comfortable with the good, the bad, and like being that very, like being in a marriage is very intimate for like even non-sexual reasons. Like you’re just, it’s 24 7. Your everything, your finances, your mental health, your physical health, everything is Oh yeah, intertwined.

And there’s a part of me that honors, like, you know, that guy I dated before, Phil? I wasn’t really good to him. I’m not saying he was great to me either. We probably weren’t good for each other, but everything I took from that, I can sit here and say, here’s how I’m gonna do it different and why. Mm-hmm. And I think that you have to acknowledge it.

I’m the same way about money. Like I, my husband’s a responsible one and like, he’ll be like, just buy it. And I’m like, What if we’re gonna like, lose our house? Then I internalize, like people will talk about, oh yeah, I’m, I’m gonna get fired for my job, whatever. And I’m like, we have to eat Ramen. Where’s all our money?

What are we doing? And he’s like, so we’re good. Like that has nothing to do with us. And I like pull it on myself. And he’s like, I don’t know where this is coming from. And we talk about it and he is like, oh, my mom was a C p A, so she taught me about finances and did all this. My parents were like, good luck.

Lesley Logan: Yeah. Oh yeah. No, my, my husband’s parents were accountants, so, um,

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: oh my gosh. I feel like we have like seven more episodes.

Lesley Logan: We do. We do stuff. We do. I love this, I love that. I love just honoring the version of yourself and not just labeling yourself as just one thing. I think it gives so much freedom and I hope, and it actually allows you all to be it till you see it.

So Ryan Mae be who you need to be in that moment and accept that sometimes this is not the best version of yourself. Ah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Ryan Mae thank you for being here and sharing anytime, sharing all of your, all of your parts of you, and also making HR sound like I somebody I wanna hire.

Ryan-Mae McAvoy: Um, well, if you ever, I, HR goals. Now, if you ever need some advice, I’m a quick email or LinkedIn a way (Lesley: you’re, you’re on the list).. Love that. Um, but thank you for having me. Like, honestly. Oh.

Lesley Logan: Yeah. This is so fun. This is such a fun conversation. You guys. What are your takeaways? What parts of the story like resonate with you?

What parts are you actually going? Oh dang, I’m gonna use that. Let us know. Uh, tag Ryan May, um, and her cats On Instagram, yes, or on LinkedIn. Um, I’m also on there. My team makes sure, uh, and also share this episode with a friend. And until next time, be it till you see it.

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Lesley Logan
That’s all I’ve got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over on IG at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us help others to BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!

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Lesley Logan
‘Be It Till You See It’ is a production of the ‘Bloom Podcast Network’.

Brad Crowell
It’s written, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.

Lesley Logan
It is produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.

Brad Crowell
Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.

Lesley Logan
Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals and Ximena Velasquez for our transcriptions.

Brad Crowell
Also to Angelina Herico for adding all the content to our website. And finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.